So earlier today, bryguypgh posted a link to an essay defending atheism. Bryon went on to point out that he’s agnostic and not an atheist, but that the article still pretty much held. So being intrigued I read it.
It’s a good read. Its not really me though.
So here’s the deal. While not by any means fundamentalist, I’d say that I was raised in a reasonably religious household. I think mamarayne would say that’s a fair statement. I went to church and Sunday school. I went to catechism (classes that are part of the process of being confirmed as an adult in the Lutheran church), but unlike all the other other kids who were forced to go to those classes, I actually paid attention. I mean, I really paid attention. I think I learned a whole lot about the Lutheran faith and Christianity in general. Probably more than most “christians” ever do.
The problem is over the years I’ve more and more come to the conclusion that I just don’t care.
It would be wrong to say I was an atheist. I just don’t feel as though I am certain enough about anything to say that there’s definitely no God. Certainly not anything metaphysical.
And saying I’m agnostic. That’s not quite right either. Because its not skepticism. Its not that I’m unsure if God exists or not.
It really is apathy. I just don’t care. At the end of the day the existence or lack of existence of a God really doesn’t affect my day to day activity. There are ten commandments. I more or less try really hard to keep like two or three of them and the others I kinda let slide. Its just that I have my own understanding of what is and isn’t right and I do those things for me. Not because I am afraid of going to hell. Or hoping that I get into heaven. Or afraid some invisible man in the sky will hit me with a bolt from the blue. Or afraid Santa won’t give me a present. I just do things cuz I think they’re right. Or moreover because I want to. Its enough for me. I complicate my life enough with my own brain to have to deal with worrying about what external cosmic forces are doing. Either I’m making the right decisions and I’ll be judged accordingly, or I’m not and I’m going to hell. Or there’s no heaven or hell and it just doesn’t matter. Either way, I think it best to go on behaving as I am anyway.
But what if I did believe in God? Wouldn’t the same be true? For all you God-believers out there, christian, jew, buddhist, wiccan, whatever, if you suddenly find indisputable proof tomorrow that your religion is wrong, are you really really going to change anything about your core behavior? If it turns out that my prophecies are right, and Jay-Z really is the higher power, are you suddenly gonna be like “fuck… and all this helping my fellow man is for nothing. I’m gonna go out and bust a cap in somebody’s ass!” or are you going to assume that HOVA wouldn’t want you to go through that, cuz HOVA did that… and try to be good boys and girls anyway? Or are you just not going to think about it and keep on keeping on as you always did and not worry about it?
Isn’t that the essence of faith? You believe in some higher power and you’re not sure that you’re right, and you just kinda believe anyway? If you’re sure you’re right, then its not faith anymore. It’s fact, right? Its all about what you know vs. what you believe in. And I guess that’s the thing. Whether the mormons or the catholics or the satanists or the taoists or followers of odin are right, its doesn’t matter. What matters is that at the end of the day faith gives you something. And that’s what gives people inner strength.
Sometimes, I wish I did have faith in something. Even if I were truly agnostic and the one thing I was sure of was that there was no way to know if there was a God. That simple drive would be something, wouldn’t it? And having something to believe in, I think just makes life a little easier. Even if it turns out you’re wrong. Sometimes I think, maybe if I tired harder. Maybe If I kept reciting all of the prayers and scriptures and whatnot over and over again, then sooner or later I would start to believe. And you know what, maybe I would. Maybe deep down I already do. Maybe I don’t. I honestly don’t know. Despite this rambling little rant here. I really don’t think about it that often.
Of course the problem with me, is that at the end of day. I really don’t care.
But I do care what other people think. Where do you lie in the realm of faith? Do you believe? if so in what? And why? If not, well the why again? I’m pretty interested in getting a wide net of faiths and beliefs here, so even if you just write a couple lines, that’d be great.
To quote the great philosopher, Dennis O’Neil:
“Booze, sex, prayer. Whatever gets you through the night.
Maybe the secret is all three.
You fear the Lord because he never ever misses on the five hole…
I can’t get the voice of Mike Lange out of my head “Christ with the breakaway! The savior making his way down the ice with the puck and heeeeee shoots he scores! scratch my back with a chainsaw, because Jesus has left the building!”
As long as the other team doesnt have Psycho 666 lace up the skates with fire crackers all over his stick…
I dunno… might make for an interesting game… imagine all of that, and then throw in THE GLOW PUCK!!! talk about ratings!
I’m a committed apathist, in that I think that any omnipotent being that requires worship is deserving of pity, not worship. Like, dude, whatever, you can move mountains with a thought, and yet you care what *I* think? You don’t need worship, you need a shrink.
The only justifiable explanation of worship I can come up with is the model of the universe explained by Populus. And, you know, I’m just not seeing it. Well, there are other justifications of worship, but in those explanations, the worship is not for the deity, but for the worshiper, and that just brings us back to booze, sex, prayer.
that’s actually another problem of mine that I didn’t really get into. I don’t really like the concept of required belief. Not only should the omnipowerful pretty much be unconcerned with the thoughts of a peon like myself, but I’m just not comfortable with the fact that a god would pick a specific faith and condemn the other 80% of humanity that’s devoutly religious but happened to get some of the details wrong.
I’d have to agree, except that my experience with religion does not include God “demanding” worship. The idea, at least in my experience at the hands of my Jesuit instructors, is that God demands nothing. That’s the whole basis of free will. It is when a person comes to respect God and understand that He is worthy of worship that the person is truly worshiping in a way other than simply rote recital of what he or she has learned.
In this case, worship is neither about placating God’s ego, or praying for something on the behalf of the worshipper. It is a sign of respect, like standing up when a lady leaves the table, or taking off your hat when the national anthem is played, or waiting for someone to finish speaking before responding.
Now, this does not jibe with the whole “God-fearing” concept. I don’t buy into that, and a person who does would not make the argument that I’ve made. But, hey, I’m one of those “damned Papists”, as far as the God-fearing sort is concerned – despite the fact that I’m not baptised or confirmed, I definitely lean Catholic because of my time spent at Jesuit schools.
clearly God (the judeo-christian one), if he exists, must allow free will. Otherwise there would be no issue. However he also demands respect as you have said (rememeber the sabbath day and keep it holy) and it is generally assumed that there is benefit to following God’s will. You don’t HAVE to. But he wants you to. He just gives you the freedom to ignore it. So to me that goes to Jer’s point. Or at least my interpretation of it. Why would a power-that-be care one way or the other about the opinions of ants beneath his feet?
Do you care about what your pets think of you? Why? While that’s a little flippant (and not the best analogy), it goes to the point.
To actually answer your question:
Since we’ve been going from the Christian viewpoint, I’ll give that answer first. He loves us. We are created in His image, and therefore he feels about us as a parent does about a child. When our child makes a finger painting for us, regardless of whether or not we can identify the subject, it makes us feel good that the one we love loves us as well.
I can’t really speak regarding other religions, but this debate has pretty much centered around Christianity, so I’m satisfied with my answer.
The concept of demanding respect and the like stems from the laws outlined in the Old Testament. When Christ did his little contract renegotiation (“the new and everlasting covenant”) it was decided that many of those laws were null and void, and we could be forgiven for any non-mortal sin. (Again, this is a Jesuit Catholic viewpoint – any protestants/orthodox/etc out there can feel free to chime in anytime.)
All that is to say, I don’t believe that God demands _anything_. The benefit to following his will is debatable (see Pascal’s Wager, though…). Someone with faith in God worships Him and respects Him because He deserves it, and to return His love.
This, of course, leads into the titular question of Rabbi Harold Kushner’s famous book: “Why do bad things happen to good people?” If God loves us, why does he test us, or torment us?
I leave that, for the moment, as an exercise for the reader.
Ah, but see I just don’t believe in a god who is anywhere that close to being on my level. Yes, I care what my cats think of me. Really, they are beneath me, but I like to think that they are more on my level than say, the ants that live outside my house. Or the bacteria that might exist on my hand. I just don’t give a damn about how those things “feel” if indeed they do feel. I don’t care if they respect me. Really the behavior of bacteria more or less doesn’t affect my day to day life, and my behavior doesn’t really affect theres. Except for when I decide to do something cataclysmic to them. Like showering for instance. But I’m going to do that no matter what. No amount of prayer or reverance from the bacteria is going to make me not flood them out of existance, and no blasphemy against me is going to make me do it any faster. I suppose on a grand stage, if they make me sick, I’ll kill them quicker, but there’s nothing they can really do about that either.
As individuals, I just don’t care about them. I can’t be bothered to think of them that way. They are beneath me.
And even if we do look at them as my cats, well, yes I want them to love me, but they don’t really have consequences of not doing so. I don’t punish them for not cuddling enough. Or for not purring their adolation towards me or what not. And for the most part, I don’t really reward them for loving me either. Not in any way quantifiable. So at essence it comes down to it being a personal choice between me and the cat. We choose to care about each other. I just don’t see religion that way. It really seems like there is a requirement. Just because he doesn’t force it on us, it doesn’t mean he doesn’t want it. I think the wanting is what bothers me about the whole thing. I like my gods to be above me… you know, like Jay-Z and Carmen Electra’s boobs (see other comments below)
I call myself an atheist. But the thought that keeps me from being 100% non-religious is “Where the hell did everything come from?” That’s deep, man.
Oh… that was me actually… sorry. I was bored. I’ll put everything away when I get home.
Given this question, I wish you’d been with us Saturday night at Sharp Edge. We were having an excellent discussion on faith, referencing Thomas Aquinas and Descartes, primarily. I’m in a hurry right now, but I’ll try to post some of the salient points later today.
Boy, that sounded pompous. It’s really just that my friend David has been reading a lot of that kind of stuff for classes lately.
Please do post when you get to it. I’m quite curious to hear some of the points and counterpoints you had.
Now that I’m sitting down to it, I have no idea how to begin. However, Blaise Pascal’s Pensees were discussed at length, especially regarding one point.
Pascal believed strongly in the duality of man. That man is both inherently good, since he is created in God’s image, and inherently evil (he uses a term that translates more accurately to “wretched”) because of the fall. I think that even without the biblical interpretation, this is pretty well accepted.
Pascal, however, believed that true happiness derives from an understanding of both parts of the self. Quote:
“…Christian religion…properly consists in the mystery of the Redeemer, who, uniting in himself the two natures, human and divine, saved men from corruption and sin in order to reconcile them with God in his divine person.
So it teaches men both these truths: that there is a God of whom we are capable, and that there is a corruption in nature which makes us unworthy of him. It is equally dangerous for man to know God without knowing his own wretchedness, and to know his wickedness without knowing the Redeemer who can cure him of it. Knowledge of only one of these points leads either to the arrogance of the philosophers, who have known God and not their wretchedness, or to the despair of the atheists, who know their wretchedness without knowing the redeemer.”
Even if you take out the Christian viewpoint, I think there’s a kernel of something important there. Many scientists, and particularly doctors (most particularly, surgeons) believe only in their own greatness, without understanding their own wretchedness. This leads to people with big egos. Most surgeons I know have to use shoe horns to fit their heads through doors. I’ve never really understood this, though, as one of the most important traits in science is the ability to understand that you might be wrong, and to be willing to examine your own beliefs on your subject of research. I’m off track here – sorry.
Anyway, the opposite problem – understanding only one’s own wretchedness – leads to cynicism, but not in the way that you might think. I believe that most people who fall into this camp don’t think that they are wretched. It’s going to take some more time to discuss this point, and I need to leave again, so I’ll come back to this later tonight.
hmmm… the basic premises, I don’t have a problem with, but I reiterate that I don’t think that any of that is really religion specific. If the duality of man exists then it exists in the presence of absence of god. And so my point holds. I look forward to hearing the rest of your argument though.
I don’t have the energy to keep going tonight, but I’m very afraid I won’t come back to it tomorrow.
I promise to do my best to do so, though. 🙂
if you write on it, I’ll read…
I am a practicing atheist and an avowed agnostic. I summarize my belief as “I don’t know and neither do you”. I don’t think it is actually possible to conclusively prove the existence of God(s) one way or the other.
I nonetheless am a practicing atheist (with perhaps some Buddhist influences and a droplet of paganism) because I have never actively felt anything that I would call divine presence or intervention, nor have I found anything in the various religious texts I’ve read that struck me as having origins outside of humanity itself.
Mostly, I just don’t “get” religious belief. Despite being raised Christian in a liberal and scholarly church (so it’s not like the fundies scared me off) I just don’t connect with it. Talking with religious people is like talking to people who believe the sky is green. I can’t prove them wrong (what they see is as it is) but it doesn’t match what I see at all.
Various articulate and religious friends have talked at length about their beliefs, but I don’t connect to it at all.
ah… but what does being a practicing atheist entail? I mean, sure you said that you’re sure that there’s no way to prove anything. That’s all well and good, but getting back to my earlier point, do you really feel as though you lead your life any differently than you would otherwise? I don’t see you going out to the streets evangelizing the lack of a god. And I don’t see you going around killing people who irritate you just because you’re sure there won’t be any afterlife repercussions. And for that matter, I have a hard time believing you’d stop the fornicating and homosexuality if you suddenly were aware that there was someone upstairs who didn’t like it. Or would you?
I point out my atheism-by-practice mostly to draw a contrast with the fact that I could have chosen to do some sort of Pascal’s wager type thing, just in case.
In a way, it’s kind of a moot point to ask what I would do if I believed in that kind of higher power, because I am not that kind of person. I don’t go around evangelizing because I do not have the evangelical nature, and if I had to join a religion for some reason I would pick one of the non-evanglical variety.
I still need an ethical foundation for myself, but it hinges on some version of the golden rule and concern for consequences in the here and now– hence no killing people who irritate me, imaginary friend in the sky or no.
With respect to the stuff like homosexuality, which is entirely permissible in my own moral framework… I guess it would depend on how convinced I was in the higher power, in the afterlife, and in the unpleasantness of the consequences. Having faith is much different from being able to say something with certainty. I guess if I were /entirely/ convinced that there is an afterlife, I have a soul that can exist eternally, God(s) hated my homosexual behavior, /and/ God(s) would punish terribly this immortal soul in said afterlife… well, maybe.
But that’s an awful lot of convincing to do, isn’t it?
yeah, it is… that’s my entire point as to how my mind works. Its all too confusing. Much easier to just not think about it and not care, since I don’t think it would change me anyway.
I am an atheist. I believe that there is no God or gods or conscious higher power. I don’t know for sure, of course, that’s why atheism is as much a belief as belief in any religion. I also believe that the world has no purpose or meaning or justice other than what human beings (and perhaps other intelligent beings) make up.
I’ve thought about this quite a lot, especially during the year that I spent (mostly) living in Buddhist monasteries in Taiwan and China. I was an agnostic before that, because I hadn’t really thought about it enough to call myself an atheist. It’s possible to be an atheist and be Buddhist, which is probably unique among religions. I don’t consider myself Buddhist, although I do like a lot of things about Buddhism and generally prefer its practices to those of other religions.
That year I spent in Buddhist monasteries not only made me an avowed atheist, it also made me understnad better why religion is important for many people. Before that, I really saw religion as only a source of negatives in the world (crusades, conservative politics, patriarchy, etc). I had no appreciation for the things it adds to many people’s lives. Being deeply involved with nuns and monks, but more importantly, lay people, over that year, gave me some insight into this.
I even am coming around to feeling that religion as practice and as community may be something that I’d want in my life at some point, especially when raising children. Yet I don’t expect to ever believe in all the doctrines of any religion.
I guess you really wanted to know why we believe or don’t. Well, none of the religions really make that much sense when you look at everything they teach – there’s a lot of improbability or silliness. When it comes to huge things like how the world works and how it got started, that is just to huge to be explained. Also, it is obvious when you look around that there is no justice in the world, and all religious have these convoluted explanations for why there really is justice but you can’t see it. The simpler answer is to believe our eyes. Finally, the argument mentioned above about how could the other 80% of people who don’t share that particular set of beliefs be wrong. No one knows, and it is unlikely that any religion formed by human thought could come close to understanding the secrets of the universe. We’re just not smart enough.
My dad was very religious when young, then lost faith and was an atheist for a while, and later had a vision of God (definitely not anthropomorphic) and now believes in a God which is similar to the Christian one. But he isn’t Christian – he takes a historical view of the Bible.
I can’t imagine that I would ever be convinced like that – if I had a vision, I’d probably think I was hallucinating. Also, I did not grow up religious – my dad himself gave us a very intellectual introduction to religion.
well, I’m rambling … it seems like most people posting are not particularly religious … we need some different viewpoints!
While everything you said is interesting, that part really sticks out. How would you work that exactly? Practicing a religion without believing it?
yeah, if I saw a vision, I think that’d probably freak me out too… But who knows.
I was raised with a grandmother who fully and completely believed that she was going to keep kosher, go to services every Saturday morning, and let her children do whatever they wanted. I also had a mother who fully and completely believed that she should keep kosher in the house to “set a good example” but “sneak” bacon or lobster on the side, when in a restaurant, but who still considered herself an Orthodox Jew. And then I had a father who would show up at services for the High Holy days, and the rest of the year only mentioned God as the reason that I hurt myself, ie: “That’s God’s way of telling you you shouldn’t be kicking the door.”
No one really mentioned whether all of this tradition was for God, or how they felt about God, but somewhere along the line I became a complete and total believer. I believe there is a God, I believe that when I pray he/she hears me, and when I talk to God, God listens. I believe that God is not overly concerned with whether or not I keep kosher- but I do keep Kosher, because it reminds me that God is the reason I’m lucky enough to have food. And I believe that I am getting my strength from God everytime that I touch a religious symbol in a time of need.
And I agree with you- it’s what gets me through tough times, and that’s why I appreciate the sense of religion that I have. But I guess I disagree in that God doesn’t take the place of booze or sex; I think God appreciates when I have booze and/or sex to get me through the night as well.
That’s interesting. Can you explain it a little more? I mean, so you’re saying that keeping kosher is an exercise for yourself more than it is for the benefit of the religion. I kind of like that idea I think, but then I wonder if its the way most practitioners feel. And I wonder how exactly that behavior helps you.
I wasn’t saying they’re mutually exclusive. In fact, last night when discussing it with, I even said “and hey, some people have all three.”
The real point is that it’s “whatever gets you through the night.” And yeah, while that could be anything, I guess my point is that if it works for you, then its probably a good thing. Maybe I should move from worshipping Jay-Z to worshipping Carmen Electra’s rack. Hmmm… maybe I could worship both. Some day, I will be drunk while banging Carmen Electra while Jay-Z’s black album plays on the stereo and I will reach Nirvana.
One of the (argueably) most important prayers in Judaism refers to keeping this prayer on your door, and on your arm. And many people do wrap a small box with the prayer in it around their arm while praying, and many people keep the prayer in a little box on the side of their doors. I was always taught that the reason for the prayer on the door is to remind you that this house is, overall, a blessing from God. So I figure it’s the same thing with the other rules, like keeping kosher and praying in general- I don’t pray to get something from God, I pray to remind myself that, should I need God, God’s there listening to me. I celebrate the holidays to remember that they happened (lucky coincidence- most of them are fun, though I definately fast every year JUST for the religious observance/rememberence, not for the fun of it), and I keep kosher not because pigs still carry tons of diseases, but because of the reminder. So, I guess I’m not saying it’s for me rather than the religion, I’m saying it’s how I interpret the religion.
I think its semantics. You exactly answered the point. You don’t expect keeping kosher or praying or whatnot to have a metaphysical effect. You are only looking at its significance to you as an individual. Take the religious practice of burial rites. Some religions attribute significance to the last rites or the burial prayers and such to the deceased. They believe that they are facilitating the deceased passing to the afterlife (or whatever their particular religion says happens to the individual after death). Other religions acknowledge the funeral practices as an exercise to ease the pain of the survivors. You seem to be tending towards the latter. Is that fair?
That’s fair. I didn’t realize you were comparing it to believing you’d get something out of it in the afterlife, because according to Jewish religion there is no Hell. Everyone goes to Heaven (sometimes after a few months in Gehennah, which is like Hell except that the fires don’t burn on Shabbos), but Heaven isn’t a reward, per se, just a resting place for souls.
yeah, told me much the same… but the specifics of the afterlife weren’t my point really… more that I was intrigued by your stating that the behavior of praying and such was for you… as opposed to for god. I wish more people read my comments. I wonder how other people feel about that.
A lot of Judaism is actually for the person rather than The Big G in the Sky. People come first. Most of what one is called upon to do as a jew is for their own improvement, and it’s a given that The Big G wants you to be a better person.
There is also an idea that there are two types of faith; faith of the heart and faith of the mind, and that neither can stand alone. You are also supposed to question your faith, it’s understood that if you do not question your beliefs then they can’t ever become that strong.
It’s also interesting that a major article of faith is that when the messiah comes and ressurects the dead, “the righteous of all nations” will be brought back, not just jews.
Overall, I would like to believe. I don’t know to what extent I do, but I enjoy the fact that the structure I participate in is sensible enough to demand learning and allow for me to have my doubts.
fascinating. Really.
Why do you want to believe? To what extent does it bother you that you aren’t sure?
I want to believe because it would be reassuring.
Being unsure doesn’t bother me much. The answer will come or it won’t.
As it stands I like the structure of the system I was born into, believe in the principles of it, and have tremendous respect for the traditions.
sounds reasonable. Thanx.
I’m actually pretty much of a similar opinion aboult being unsure. Hence my not caring remarks.
I am usually an athiest.
Everyonce in a while I become inspired into fervor and religiosity and cross the line into agnosticism. At these times I think maybe, just maybe there’s some sort of “spiritual” (whatever that may mean)… connection to it all.
However, usually even that just strikes me as the silly rantings of wishful thinking and creative imagination.
I was raised christian, was confirmed, and was quite religious right before I began questioning everything. I never liked the apparent lack of answers, and never came back. I never think of it as “losing faith”, but more as “gaining reason” as much as I’d rather shy away from such a phrase for fear of offending my religious friends.
I read that article earlier today and it spoke to me in a way. I do identify with the feeling of ridiculousness religion seems to have. However, it is certainly extreme, and inaccurate as to how many other athiests there are. I wouldn’t show it to any of my religious friends, because I know they’d see the exageration and roll their eyes at it.
anecdotally, its pretty easy to say that losing faith is gaining reason. That the more educated you are, the less likely you are to be religious. The base trend seems to be that that’s true. But I don’t think its really that cut and dry either. I think its goes further down than simple intelligence or education. I think there’s a human need for understanding. For knowing the answers. And most people just have to have answers they can believe in. For you, you chose to not believe the answers that were handed to you by the church, and you decided to believe other answers. But really, can do you have any proof of a big bang or of evolution? I mean, you personally? I sure don’t. I tend to believe in evolution, but only as a matter of course, I’ve never really done the research. I just read a book once. I also read a book that said it had proof that the universe was created as is in 6 days. The thing is, the evolution books seem to make better/more realistic sense of certain answers. Like where the universe came from. Other books, like say the bible have other answers, like why there is evil. It all depends on the questions you want to ask, I guess.
I ask my questions to the internet. Maybe my LJ Friends list is my god.
“I think its goes further down than simple intelligence or education.”
Of course. This wasn’t an answer to anything. It’s an attempt at a description of a feeling. It’s not “how it is”, it’s “how I feel”, and that’s the best way I’ve been able to figure out how to describe it. However, it’s still not quite right, because it seems to imply that I think religious people are less intelligent, which is not the case. It’s just that I don’t identify with the “losing faith” feeling at all. In fact, that seems like an extremely foreign and strange concept to me.
“For you, you chose to not believe the answers that were handed to you by the church, and you decided to believe other answers.”
We didn’t ever mention what answers I’ve decided to believe in. Actually, there’s very little I can put into such a category. I am quite skeptical about most theories. I didn’t put down the bible just to treat my science textbook as one. Another reason why the “gained reason” phrasing fails to describe anything but a vague emotion.
Please remember I am (trying to be) a philosopher. I do not sit and take information spoon-fed to me, whatever the source. I’m sure about very little (if anything, really). Thing is, I’m ok with that. I really don’t find all this uncertainty unsettling or depressing. I actually find it, well, rather exciting.
“Other books, like say the bible have other answers, like why there is evil. It all depends on the questions you want to ask, I guess.”
It does? See, in history of philosophy, we learn that that this a very big problem in theology (the Problem of Evil), and that the bible does very little to answer that question. Theology scholars spend lifetimes grappling with this one.
ah… maybe I didn’t explain that correctly enough. See, I’m not disagreeing with anything you’re saying here, really. But I do think that you probably want different questions answered. For instance, “Why is there evil?” the bible is pretty clear on that. “Because Eve couldn’t leave well enough alone and had to eat the damn apple.” It’s kinda a stupid answer, as far as I’m concerned. And really its not even consistent, because wasn’t the snake evil before that? But that’s kinda my point. At some point maybe you just have to have faith in something. Religion, philosophy, science… or as I said before, booze, sex, prayer, whatever gets you through the night.
OK, yeah. we do all ask different questions. Sometimes examining the questions one is asking is even more interesting and revealing than looking at the answers they’ve come up with.
I’m still rather shocked at the ease at which you treat the Problem of Evil. Seriously, even as an athiest not even interested in the question I’m appauled at how you say it’s so easily answered. To those that are interested in such a question, there is an ENTIRE DICIPLINE of Theology that delves into that sort of thing, and this is a MAJOR area of study within it. I promise you, the entirety of the lifetimes devoted to this problem are not summed up by “the bible is clear, it’s all ’cause of Eve eating the apple.” It is a much more complicated and interesting issue to those that, well, are interested in such things.
Even amongst theists, answers aren’t that simple.
It’s another reason I’m uncomfortable with comming across sounding like I think theists are less intelligent. There are plenty of believers out there that pay as much respect to making an effort to understand things and appreciate the complexities of their own questions.
ah… but I’m not treating it simply. As I said, i don’t think its a very good answer. If god created man without sin (and presumedly the other animals as well), and eating the fruit of knowledge gave man sin, then why was the snake evil? So yeah, its not really a good answer.
What I’m saying is that it is an answer. How good or bad it is, is a subjective judgement left to the user. A true believer will take a biblical passage at its word. How was the universe created? Intelligent design. Its right there on page one of the bible. Sure to the believer of the big bang, it leaves a lot seemingly unanswered, but the big bang theory does the same for the questions that the christian might ask.
I’d argue that both questions can be arbitrarilly simple or complex. It all depends on how much the subject is willing to believe on faith and how much they need “proof.”
Me, I tend to not really care about the specifics of such things. Big Bang? Intelligent Design? Whatever! Does the answer do anything to change the price of beer? No? Ok, will one answer land me in a supermodel sandwich and the other leave me impotent? No, again? And since I don’t actually pray, in the end I basically just don’t care. I find it much more interesting to examine the beliefs of other individuals than to have them myself.
Hmmm… there’s something pretty weird about that when i think about it…
I actually agree with you on most of this….but I don’t think I just don’t care as much as you just don’t care.
but my core belief is I just do what feels right, and try and stay away from those things that make me feel bad….or whatever….it’s late.
but there’s your few lines.
yep, it was late when I wrote it too. There are all kinds of errors and mis-statements up there.
But anyway, thanx for taking the time to respond.
I’m not sure what you mean by you’re not as sure you don’t care as much as I don’t. Does that mean it bothers you that you aren’t sure? If so, why? What do you do about it? If not, what does it mean?
just replying
I didn’t click on any links, so I don’t think i read your whole post. But you said you’re interested in other people’s opinions.
I’m catholic, but I basically only believe in god & heaven. I don’t think too much about hell because I would just rather not think of it as an option. That’s just scary. But any time I question my beliefs I’m always kind of sent a sign.
Like…when i was in a relationship with a person you may know, i was unhappy quite often. It got to a point where I had enough and I prayed to god to make things better or give me a way out. We broke up the next day. Or my cousin was hit by a drunk driver when i was little and my family prayed the entire time to keep him alive even though the damage was VERY bad. My mom says that my uncle said, “You can let him go god. I don’t want to see him suffer anymore.” She said it was like he wasn’t even finished saying the sentence and my cousin flat lined.
I’ve got a few other stories like that too. So I definitely believe in god. I’m not sure which things I think deem you to eternity in hell or heaven but… well I just try to be a good person. I know there’s someone up there when judgement day comes. Hope that didn’t sound too stupid or personal. It’d be your fault for asking what people thought anyway.
Re: just replying
no, its not stupid at all. Thanx for taking the time to answer.
So are you saying, that for you, faith is based on your personal observance of evidence of the higher power, as opposed to allegorical writings?
What if you were as sure there wasn’t. Would it fundamentally change your behavior, or would you still try to be a good person?
Re: just replying
I guess I’ve been lucky to observe those kind of things, so i don’t know if i’d be as faithful had I not. Either way, I’m sure I’d try to be a good person just because that’s how i was raised. and for fear that if there is a higher power, i wouldn’t want to piss him off and go to hell.
Re: just replying
that’s fair… thanx.
Hi … I wandered over by your beckoning from. You were curious as to my religious beliefs or, perhaps more appropriately, my abeliefs.
A background: I grew up in a fairly religious household with a Russian Orthodox father and a southern Baptist mother. Though I was never baptised, I attended church and Sunday school every week in both my father’s and mother’s churches (alternating) until I was middle school aged and was confirmed in the Presbyterian church. My parents did not baptise me because they did not want to choose my faith for me; they hoped to expose me to their faiths, and I would naturally fall into the one the best “fit.”
As far as I can remember, I am conscious of “not believing,” though I wasn’t able to intellectualize that “non belief” or put a title to it until I was around age 14. I don’t know how to expand on this pre-defined “non belief” any more than to say that none of it ever “clicked,” or that none of it really ever “meant” anything to me. I was conscious of this routine, and of this going through these motions. I did it because, well, that’s what one did.
When I was around 14, I met someone who really challenged me to put some thought into this “non belief.” I came to understand that I am what’s called a hard atheist. Soft atheists “do not believe in god,” whereas hard atheists “believe that god does not exist.” I ackowledge that there is a particular belief, and I charge that that belief is wrong.
I believe that there is no truth to the idea of god, heaven, hell, angels, fate, determinism, reincarnation, etc … or in any other divine, spiritual, or “otherwordly” existence or instance. I’m a “what you see is what you get” kinda gal.
I also believe that the burden of proof is not on the atheist’s shoulders. The idea that it is is some form of slapstick, in my mind.
I have ideas as to why the general ideas of religions began and why they perpetuate, but Nietzsche and Bakunin say it better in their writings of master and slave moralities. I believe that organized religion is a virus.
However, I do believe than an individualized interpretation of religion can be beneficial … even if under false pretenses. I see little fault in the AA member finding inspiration to stay sober in god, and I see little fault in a widower finding solace after losing his wife in god. Is there an inherent psychological weakness in these people? Yes, but it does not make them “bad.”
I don’t live my daily life carrying my atheism on my shoulders. I’ll go to church for a family member’s wedding or to buy a fish sandwich during Lent. My atheism is just something that “is,” an truth’s existence without much more essence past that. My Russian family knows not to ask me to say a prayer before holiday meals. That’s just about the only road bump I’ve had to overcome.
well said, and thank you. I like your hard vs. soft distinction. I think I pretty much covered my various feelings on what I believe, don’t believe (or in my words don’t care about) earlier.
I don’t so much have a problem with the belief or non-belief in god, so much as I am of the opinion that the specifics of it don’t effect my life in any measurable way (at least the way I choose to live it), and therefore its not really worth worrying about at all. It’s sort of like wondering whether or not the universe is infinite. Is there life on other planets. Did OJ do it? None of those things really effect me in even the slightest bit, so it doesn’t really matter. The only purpose I see in worshipping a god is that you can use it as a rationale for certain behavior. “God doesn’t want me to kill people.” But in the end, who cares if there is a god or not. Shouldn’t I just not kill people because they don’t want me killing them? Stuff like that.
You’re cool. If you and any friends aren’t busy this weekend and looking for something to do, feel free to email me at mav at elseworld dot com and I’ll send you an invite to my jammy jam birthday party that is talked about in several other posts here (it should be fun, there will be live bands, and drinking and prizes to be won… should be pretty exciting). Interested?
I understand your point a bit better now … and I agree that, at least for me, but atheism/aform of religion does not affect my daily life. I think it might actually be silly if it did, as it would pose me as an angsty youth, “fighing the power.” I suppose my atheism, if it had to have some kind of essence, is calming.
At the same time, I do have a sense of right and wrong, and though I would love to contribute it to humanism and rationalism, I realize that my morality is not untouched by Christian dogma. It’s much more cultural and social, though, than it is religious or spiritual.
In the end, those who do care who believes in what god and how he chooses to celebrate that god, and those who will alter their treatment of an individual based on that belief and celebration, are punishing themselves with their own anger, frustration, and paranoia.
Yet still, I do think it’s important to wax philosophical and intellectual on the realities and theories of our worlds. As an atheist, I need to have a reasonable understanding of the very thing I am rejecting; otherwise, I’m just as washed up as any fundamentalist. True conversation is the ultimate education, anyway; if I can’t learn something about myself, at least I can learn something about someone else.
That’s a sweet offer, but this weekend also happens to be my brother’s birthday weekend, as well. He may be turning 27, but he still demands two full weekends of self-celebration (so don’t count on me for any jams next weekend, either). Hope you have a good one!
I understand your point a bit better now … and I agree that, at least for me, but atheism/aform of religion does not affect my daily life. I think it might actually be silly if it did, as it would pose me as an angsty youth, “fighing the power.” I suppose my atheism, if it had to have some kind of essence, is calming.
At the same time, I do have a sense of right and wrong, and though I would love to contribute it to humanism and rationalism, I realize that my morality is not untouched by Christian dogma. It’s much more cultural and social, though, than it is religious or spiritual.
In the end, those who do care who believes in what god and how he chooses to celebrate that god, and those who will alter their treatment of an individual based on that belief and celebration, are punishing themselves with their own anger, frustration, and paranoia.
Yet still, I do think it’s important to wax philosophical and intellectual on the realities and theories of our worlds. As an atheist, I need to have a reasonable understanding of the very thing I am rejecting; otherwise, I’m just as washed up as any fundamentalist. True conversation is the ultimate education, anyway; if I can’t learn something about myself, at least I can learn something about someone else.
That’s a sweet offer, but this weekend also happens to be my brother’s birthday weekend, as well. He may be turning 27, but he still demands two full weekends of self-celebration (so don’t count on me for any jams next weekend, either). Hope you have a good one!
well said, and thank you. I like your hard vs. soft distinction. I think I pretty much covered my various feelings on what I believe, don’t believe (or in my words don’t care about) earlier.
I don’t so much have a problem with the belief or non-belief in god, so much as I am of the opinion that the specifics of it don’t effect my life in any measurable way (at least the way I choose to live it), and therefore its not really worth worrying about at all. It’s sort of like wondering whether or not the universe is infinite. Is there life on other planets. Did OJ do it? None of those things really effect me in even the slightest bit, so it doesn’t really matter. The only purpose I see in worshipping a god is that you can use it as a rationale for certain behavior. “God doesn’t want me to kill people.” But in the end, who cares if there is a god or not. Shouldn’t I just not kill people because they don’t want me killing them? Stuff like that.
You’re cool. If you and any friends aren’t busy this weekend and looking for something to do, feel free to email me at mav at elseworld dot com and I’ll send you an invite to my jammy jam birthday party that is talked about in several other posts here (it should be fun, there will be live bands, and drinking and prizes to be won… should be pretty exciting). Interested?
Hi … I wandered over by your beckoning from. You were curious as to my religious beliefs or, perhaps more appropriately, my abeliefs.
A background: I grew up in a fairly religious household with a Russian Orthodox father and a southern Baptist mother. Though I was never baptised, I attended church and Sunday school every week in both my father’s and mother’s churches (alternating) until I was middle school aged and was confirmed in the Presbyterian church. My parents did not baptise me because they did not want to choose my faith for me; they hoped to expose me to their faiths, and I would naturally fall into the one the best “fit.”
As far as I can remember, I am conscious of “not believing,” though I wasn’t able to intellectualize that “non belief” or put a title to it until I was around age 14. I don’t know how to expand on this pre-defined “non belief” any more than to say that none of it ever “clicked,” or that none of it really ever “meant” anything to me. I was conscious of this routine, and of this going through these motions. I did it because, well, that’s what one did.
When I was around 14, I met someone who really challenged me to put some thought into this “non belief.” I came to understand that I am what’s called a hard atheist. Soft atheists “do not believe in god,” whereas hard atheists “believe that god does not exist.” I ackowledge that there is a particular belief, and I charge that that belief is wrong.
I believe that there is no truth to the idea of god, heaven, hell, angels, fate, determinism, reincarnation, etc … or in any other divine, spiritual, or “otherwordly” existence or instance. I’m a “what you see is what you get” kinda gal.
I also believe that the burden of proof is not on the atheist’s shoulders. The idea that it is is some form of slapstick, in my mind.
I have ideas as to why the general ideas of religions began and why they perpetuate, but Nietzsche and Bakunin say it better in their writings of master and slave moralities. I believe that organized religion is a virus.
However, I do believe than an individualized interpretation of religion can be beneficial … even if under false pretenses. I see little fault in the AA member finding inspiration to stay sober in god, and I see little fault in a widower finding solace after losing his wife in god. Is there an inherent psychological weakness in these people? Yes, but it does not make them “bad.”
I don’t live my daily life carrying my atheism on my shoulders. I’ll go to church for a family member’s wedding or to buy a fish sandwich during Lent. My atheism is just something that “is,” an truth’s existence without much more essence past that. My Russian family knows not to ask me to say a prayer before holiday meals. That’s just about the only road bump I’ve had to overcome.