It’s been several months since the last time I sat down to write 1000 words of free flowing hostility. I had actually been thinking about it a lot lately. But I didn’t want to do it gratuitously. I wanted to make sure I had a good topic before I broke out the format. But today a [well for the sake of argument, lets call it a story] broke today and it put a bug up my ass far enough that I knew I’d be inspired to write one. So without further ado, I give you, 1000 words of Free Flowing Hositility on Hometown Hotties on the Cyberbathroom Wall:
So a “huge” controversy broke today in our little Podunk section of the globe. I am speaking of the Mt. Lebanon Top 25 List scandal. Apparently an anonymous group of students took it upon themselves to hold an election, tabulate the results and then write and distribute a list of the hottest girls in the school. Parents found out about the list. And then the smackdown ensued.
Now try as I might, I seem to be unable to find an actual transcript of the list. But several newspaper articles describe what was on it. There are pictures of each of the 25 girls, their names and grades (sophomore, junior or senior. No freshmen made the list). Along with the photos, each girl was graded on their looks in three categories: Face, Butt and Breasts. And a brief bio was given for each girl that apparently was somewhat “crude and vulgar” at least according to the papers.
Somehow, parents found the list and were outraged. They gave the list to the school, which investigated and decided it wasn’t really their problem because it didn’t actually have anything to do with the school (as there was no proof that it was distributed or created on school grounds). The list was turned over to the police who also investigated and decided to ignore it, as it wasn’t really evident that any crime had been committed.
The parents bitched louder.
Now the school board is revisiting the matter and they have essentially promised that once the responsible parties are discovered they will receive strict disciplinary action.
Oh for fuck’s sake.
In the interest of saving taxpayer dollars, let me help the investigation along by just revealing the guilty parties right here. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say, “It was the boys.” Shocking, isn’t it? But wait, I can do even better. I can even tell you the motive. You see, I have it on good authority, that these juvenile delinquents HAVE TESTICLES.
For the benefit those of you who don’t have testicles, or as we sometimes call them in the common vernacular, balls, let me explain their power. Testicles are a pair of glands located in the nether regions of the male anatomy just between the legs that emit a powerful hormone throughout the body of the human male that causes us to behave in an otherwise abnormal manner when confronted with the female glands known as mammaries, or as referred to in the common vernacular, breasteses. In short, when boys see titties, we go bat-shit insane. It’s totally genetic. Really. Look it up.
There are several acceptable and unacceptable ways of dealing with this insanity. But make no mistake; it must be dealt with. To hold it end can lead to devastating consequences. As we mature, we find more constructive ways of dealing with the testosterone overload. Generally, it involves a box of tissues, a bottle of lube and a Jenna Jameson video. But at the younger ages, we’re not quite as intellectually enlightened. But that sexual frustration has to go somewhere. Certainly it would be inappropriate to go out and take the breasteses by force. That’s frowned upon to say the least. In all likelihood, a great many people would probably also take offense if the lads encountered a perky and nubile set of breasts walking toward them in the hallway after 5th period and immediately whipped out their penises and started to vigorously jack off (admit it fellas, every single one of you has had a moment where you’ve thought about it). That’d be kind of weird. So instead, the boys have taken to the tried and true method adopted by their forefathers. Talking shit.
When archaeologists find the cradle of civilization you know what they’re going to find carved into the wall of the very first cave by ancient Neanderthal man? They’re going to find a crudely drawn stick figure drawing with long hair and two large circles between the arms in the chest area, and under it will be inscribed the words “Oooga ooga grunt oogah gah garrr ook ook garrrr!” They will spend years translating it, and eventually will find the key to this Rosetta stone. It will read, “For a good time, call Eve, (412) 867-5309.”
Look, I’m not trying to trivialize what these girls are going through here. I acknowledge that kids can be cruel. I can see how the girls might feel harassed by this. But at some point you just have to learn to take these things with a grain of salt. You’re hot a teenaged girl. You know what that means. It means that teenaged boys want to fuck you. If you want to be honest about it, the grown up boys want to fuck you too. Really we do. That’s just how we are. We work around it.
But then we have people like the anonymous father in this article that claims this is the written equivalent of raping his daughter. With all due respect, sir, FUCK YOU! I’ve been lucky enough to have not been raped in my life. But I know several people who have been, and I’m willing to put money on the fact that every single one of them would prefer to have “Cindy has great tits” written about them in a book than to be raped again.
I’m not even saying that what the boys did wasn’t harmful. Just that it wasn’t illegal. At some point you just have to allow criticism. Despite what I’ve said here, this isn’t even “boys being boys.” Its people writing an opinion. Would I feel the same way if it were a list of the top 25 niggers in school? Actually, yes I would. And I’d defend their right to write it. Just because the kids are being asinine, doesn’t mean they’re wrong. This is America, HOVAdammit. You have a Jay-Z-given right to be an asshole. And thank, Jigga. Because I use it. A lot.
And of course I want to know what you think. Am I wrong, should some free speech not be protected or are these people overreacting to standard highschool behavior. Did you have this sort of thing happen in your school. Anyone ever make a list like this? Anyone ever been on it?
1 From the latin, scarlittojohanssonum, for Daaayummm, I’d tap that ass like Sandman Simms.
“Written rape”? Bah.
There was one of these lists at my high school. I never made one– never even saw the whole thing– and I’m sure I was never on it. Is this kind of thing tasteless, offensive, potentially hurtful, and generally stupid shit? Absolutely. Does it deserve the full weight of administrative crushing? Eh… no, I don’t think so. Until I read this I didn’t even remember my own high school’s list, long forgotten in the pile of adolescent wankery from that time. I’d rather they focus on actually educating the students and thus fostering more respectful and enlightened attitudes, rather than kneejerking some punitive measures.
Yeah, the written rape comment was by far the most offensive thing in the entire story to me. I mean, I feel for the guy. I get that he might not like that boys are calling his daughter a slut, but come on, don’t trivialize something like that.
As I said to people elsewhere I think this is pretty much just more evidence of the impending pussification of America. It really bugs me for the same reason that the other local story I bitched about a while back about the no-cut policy in Woodland Hills high school sports. Part of high school is about preparing you for life. I hate when people go out of their way to protect students from life.
As I’m sure you learned in your LCS classes, it trivializes the list.
The male gaze is far worse than rape, and if porn isn’t murder, it’s only because it’s much, much worse than murder. Look it up. Re-read your Dworkin and Foucault, and you’ll realize that looking at hot women and then talking about it with their friends is the worst crime ever committed by one human against another.
good point. I’m gonna go all Kerry here and flip flop. Obviously we should go all Foucault on these kids and have them drawn and quartered.
We just need to stick them in a Panopticon and show them what it feels like.
oh, now you’re wussing out, eh? don’t have the stomach for bloody, torturous capital punishment?
5 stars my man!!!!
thanx
Hey, wasn’t this an episode of “My So Called Life”?
yeah it was! MSCL ftw!
what does ftw mean?
For The Win
I don’t get it? Is that an in-joke from the show? It just sounds like something from Hollywood Squares.
it’s not from the show.. it’s from the internets
for the win..
I didn’t really watch the show, so I don’t know, but it wouldn’t surprise me. I mean, its kinda an obvious thing that you just sort of have to expect will happen between any group of males aged between say 14 and 125.
It bothers me that the first instinct of the parents (at least as portrayed in the news) is to punish rather than to educate; they’d prefer vengeance to a solution. The free speech rights of high school students are rarely defended with much vigor, and in this case I guess no one dares mention that it’s just speech, albeit offensive.
Now if there’s a slander lawsuit in there somewhere, that’s something I could get behind, but the school district cracking down seems like the wrong tool for the job.
As a mater of clarification…
It would be a libel lawsuit, being that the list was in writing.
Re: As a mater of clarification…
Thanks, I am edified!
Re: As a mater of clarification…
Yeah, like I told Bryan, I could see that maybe occuring, and maybe someone might have a point there, but I still think its overreacting. I’d hate for R. Kelly to be able to sue me for talking about him being an idiot.
Re: As a mater of clarification…
It is not libel if you honestly believed at the time that R. Kelly was an idiot.
Re: As a mater of clarification…
well, I do imply quite heavily over and over again in that particular rant that he actively enjoys fucking and peeing on 14 year old girls. An allegation that he seems to deny.
So in the interest of keeping to 1000 words and maintaining character, I left out the part where they claim that one of the girls was made fun of for racial reasons. That might bother me, but again, I don’t think they should be able to prosecute on it. The other thing they claim is that the list talks about what sexual acts the girls have performed. That might be libel, if it could be prooved to be false, but again, I think some people are still just taking this too seriously. Its the cyber equivalent of scribbling on a bathroom wall. Some shit you just have to let roll off of you.
The lawyer for one of the accused boys pointed out that in a slander/libel lawsuit, it’s an affirmative defense that the material in question is true.
Do you really want to listen to someone in open court testify that your daughter did, in fact, take ecstasy and perform oral sex on him and his buddies?
right. it’s hard to prove. And even if you could, then you’d have to prove that it was somehow damaging. And the entire thing is thrown out the door the second you find that the girl in question really did blow the guys they said she did. Not to be all misogynistic or cynical or anything, but I have a hard time believing that they didn’t get any of the 25 girls right. I went to high school. I remember. Some girls put out, dammit.
Yet another thing I did that would get me kicked out of school these days.
like you’ve stopped now… 🙂
yeah, see, I think to some level or another every kid did this. This isn’t the same as having a “hit list” of people you want to kill in the school (though, I’m not sure I don’t think people are overreacting about this sort of thing going on) this is girls we think are hot and rumors about them. It’s no different than the “Burn Book” in the movie Mean Girls.
Free speech, yes. The list producing enough trouble to be its own punishment, likely. Punishment for the creator(s) and distributor(s) of the list? I’m sure there will be social repurcussions. On one hand, that may be enough. On the other, they should probably get a talking to in order to understand the impacts that the list might have.
There were lists like that from my school years, maybe not including sexual escapades of those on it (as this one had, from what I heard on the news during my drive to work this morning). If I was on any of them, I didn’t know about it. I just heard that they existed. I ignored it. And as far as making a list like that? Only in my head.
Well, in a lot of respects, I am all for just letting the kids work this shit out themselves. Will there be repercussions? Maybe, maybe not. I could see none of the guys involved ever getting a date with any of the girls on the list, and I could also see the girls being flattered and wanting to hook up with them. A talking to, I’m not terribly adverse to. I can probably even respect a policy of “you can’t do this in school.” But what the kids do on their own time, so long as it doesn’t specifically directly harm others, I can’t get behind. If a school wants to say “no racial slurs at school.” Fine, but you can’t punish the kid for writing a racial supremacy website at home.
I was curious about what the students’ legal rights really are. I found this:
http://www.abanet.org/media/factbooks/ch8.html
Looks like the “vulgar, lewd, obscene, or plainly offensive” clause would be in play on this one.
well obscenity laws are always controversial. The legal definition of obscenity is much less obvious than most people who complain about things being obcene realize. Objectionable is not obscene. That said, the law you cited also plainly says:
Since no one noticed for like a month until the parents made a big stink of it (and in fact, for the years before that the list had been in affect according to the article), I don’t think you can claim that it materially and substantially intereferes with school activities.
On the other hand, I can see where you’re coming from. And I can see how one might use the law to say that these kids did something wrong. But even if the law says that, I still disagree.
I wasn’t making a political claim or expressing an opinion; just trying to figure out what the legal argument would be.
understood… I was just expounding upon your comment with my views on it.
Dear school board: Please GTFO.
heh… well, if you want to be succinct, yeah, that works too.
Though really, I’m also pretty offended by the one guy calling for the the dismissal of the principal and the entire school board. I mean seriously, just grow the fuck up.
Speaking as a girl…
Who gives a flying fuck?
Back in 6th grade, my class made up an I Hate Tara club because the girl was a complete bitch. She reported us to the teacher, but the list of members was destroyed.
Also in 6th grade, a group of people in my class jokingly passed around a paper that said something to the effect of “I hate homework. No more homework” (which I would guess is something most middleschool/highschool kids agree with). They got detention for it!
Just because these people are children doesn’t mean they should have less rights than adults. If this would have occurred at a bar or on a college campus, punishment would not even be an issue (although I’m sure a few guys would get their nuts kicked in). I’m sure people would still have been outraged, but this is not a criminal offense. Could you make it into a civil offense? Yeah, sure, sue the perpetrators for libel. But somehow, I don’t think suing kids is an answer to this problem.
Ugh, this kind of stuff makes me want to punch the parents.
Re: Speaking as a girl…
I think the issue is that if it had occured at a job, it would be called sexual harrassment. I’m torn on that. I get that its inappropriate to put such a list up in the lunch room, but am I really expected to not notice if one of my coworkers is hot? Am I expected to not be able to mention it out of the context of work. I certainly hope not, because that’s just a world I can’t live in.
Re: Speaking as a girl…
You’re right…it’s possible that it would be sexual harassment. But even then, people usually get fines for this (or go to civil court). They typically aren’t sent to prison for years. So why would these parents want to punish the boys criminally?
For all any of us know, some of the girls ON THE LIST could have actually made it up to further their popularity! I’ve seen that done before.
Expelling students or putting them in juvy hall is not going to solve anything, except make them more likely to become a criminal.
Re: Speaking as a girl…
In this case, I doubt any of the girls made up the list themselves. The boys intereviewed seemed to imply that the list is made every year and has been for a while. It had just never been an issue before.
And it shouldn’t be one now.
Re: Speaking as a girl…
Don’t doubt that. Girls make up that list and show it off to the guys, while pretending that a guy made it. Why? It’s pure high school theory…if one guy says “wow she’s so hot!”, his friend will go “yeah she is!”…which leads to other guys going “well if they think she’s hot, she must be hot.”
Girls know how this works. Trust me.
Re: Speaking as a girl…
oh don’t get me wrong. I totally believe it’s the kind of thing that a bunch of girls might do. I just don’t think that’s what happened in this particular case.
Re: Speaking as a girl…
am I really expected to not notice if one of my coworkers is hot?
No.
Am I expected to not be able to mention it out of the context of work.
Yes. (At least, if there’s any chance at all that it might get back to her.) A coworker is a coworker, and you have to show a certain amount of respect to coworkers. That includes not commenting on their relative hotness or notness, while at work or in any place where they [or some other coworker] might have a reasonable chance of hearing you.
Re: Speaking as a girl…
granting that what I know of you, you’re admittedly more prudish than the average, and granted that I am obviously far more liberal than average.
But actually, no I don’t have to worry about respecting the employee out of work. And I shouldn’t have to. The law can’t differentiate between my behavior towards one type of person and another, because all people are inherently equal. So if I am allowed to rank the hottest actresses, or singers, or girls on my street, then I have to be allowed to rank my co-workers or co-eds, so long as I’m not doing it at work and disrupting the work environment. The sexual part of this is a red herring. Its really about harrasment. The law can’t force me to not be misogynistic anymore than it can force me to not be racist. I can go home and rank my coworkers by boobies, or niggerness or republicanishness and that’s by business, so long as I don’t let it affect the workplace. The point of sexual harrassment laws is to protect the victem not to control the thoughts of the assailant. That’s why the press and speech and their derivitives are protected in the first place.
To look at it another way, I work in very corporate environment. We have a winter holiday party. We just celebrated the spring holiday. Now clearly the reason we get the winter holiday and the associated party is to celebrate the December birth of our lord and savior Jay-Z. Everyone knows that. But I can’t hang images devoting my worship to him because that might be offensive to some of the heathens I work with who worship Jesus or Moses or Mohammed or Buddha or whatever. But upon leaving work I have every right to assemble and worhip his Jigganess and every reason to believe that I have the full protection of the law to do so. And those christians and jews and whatnot can worship their lords too, and shouldn’t have to be worried about me being offended.
You are completely right. The parents’ response is totally inappropriate. Crafting a “hot list” is not illegal, and not a crime. Filing suit and bitching loudly won’t solve anything.
The appropriate response is for these 25 young women to band together, form an elite ninja strike force, and pants the motherfuckers.
I am quite serious.
Find out who they are, piss in their sports drinks, pour beta mercapto ethanol in their lockers, and staple pages from obscene magazines to the back of their term papers
… or just plain beat the shit out of them. That works too.
well, see, as the school I really couldn’t condone that. That would be battery. I can’t just say that’s ok. Speech is different than physical attack. That said ninjas are wicked cool!
and I might be inspired to look the other way, I love frontier justice
The guys don’t care about getting suspended, aren’t worried about jail time, and are probably getting off on all the publicity.
I’m sure that by now, everyone in the school knows who wrote the list. The girls should just get together and blacklist the guys. Refuse to date them (or have sex with them, or whatever), or anyone who hangs out with them. If you find out that they’re seeing someone on the side, slip that person a note and let them know what the deal is.
If you want to fight someone, you find out where it hurts the most, and you squeeze.
the thing is, I’m still of the impression that the girls really don’t care. Its the fathers that are upset. And I don’t think the boys are going to be that mad about the fathers not sleeping with them.
Damn. This is just a crime.
How can you have a “hottest list” with no “legs” category?
yep… or stomachs… damn kids today… no appreciation for beauty
OMG!!! This is totally new! Teenage boys have never ever before looked at girls as sex objects, admired their feminine assests, or fantasized about participating in sexual acts with said girls! And they’ve certainly never agreed upon these things amongst themselves! Why, next they will be thinking of the girls as they stroke their genitals in the privacy of their home or the school restroom! What is our society coming to?
yep… and then what will we have? A whole generation of blind men with hairy palms.
You mean we don’t already?
I bet you expected a different response from the teacher. But serious. I’m more worried about a boy actually pulling a girl’s pants down in public, or getting a BJ from her in the bathroom (both have happened in my school this year), than I am about this adolescent wanking. Which is all it is. It might lead to more serious things, and they should get a “talking to” from their parents. Yup, I said parents. This is a parenting responsibility. Not a teaching issue.
no, actually, its exactly the response I would expect from you and the one that I would hope for (though not necessarilly expect) from any teacher. You’re a reasonable person. You realize you are a teacher, and not a parent and you can’t see everything. Kids are going to hide things, and as was mentioned elsewhere, lets just be happy they weren’t hiding a gun. That sounds like a cop-out, but its not. Your responsibility is instructing students in intellectual development. You have a secondary responsibilty of protecting them physical harm. You cannot and should not be responsible for their emotional development or their emotional safety. After all, it isn’t even appropriate for you to tell a student whether or not he should be a snitch. You certainly can’t tell him whether or not it is appropriate to lust after co-eds.
By the way, thanx for the post card!
Yeah….I do have to wonder what my reaction would have been had this happened at my school. Generally my reaction to any bias incident is to talk about it. And usually to find some way of equating it to racism, which the kids all agree is bad, and help them understand that bias is bias and we shouldn’t say stuff about people just because of color, gender, age, religion, or sexual orientation (yup, we have the gay talk quite a bit). I recognize that some of their parents are feeding them this bias. So I would have talked about this list and how offensive it is, but the boys do have the constitutional right to be offensive. And I don’t really see how this list is all that different from when People does the Sexiest Man Alive or whatever or whoever it is that does that. It’s just a more genteel way of saying “We want to fuck him, and you should too.”
You’re welcome!
exactly. I’m not arguing that its offensive (or non offensive). I obviously offensive (and quite intentionally so) here a lot. And as you say, I have a right to do so. I obviously do it for entertainment value and usually because its easier for me to write and make the points I want to make “in character” than it is to do it out of character. But rights are rights. And you have the right to be sexist or racist or anti-semetic or homophobic or anti-republican or whatever you want. Like you said, the kids understand racism, so if you equate sexism with racism to teach them that it is bad, that is one thing. But punishing them for exercising their beliefs and rights is another.
And as you said, yeah, its the exact same thing as People does. Or FHM, for instance. The picture for this entry, in fact comes from FHM’s sexiest woman list for this year. But moreover, its the same as electing a homecoming king and queen, or prom, or voting for sexiest, prettiest, smartest, mostl likely to succeed, etc. in the senior year end yearbook polls. Its merely frame of reference that is making this seem objectionable at all. And, though I can’t really know, it really feels like its a bigger deal to the parents than it is to the students. Obviously we all remember stuff like this from when we were in school. The students interviewed acknowledge that the list has been published in previous years, and it seems that the list was distributed a month ago without incident. Its only a problem because the parents are bringing it up now. In fact, I’d argue that the hubbub is more disruptive than the original list ever could have been.
I think my favorite part of the hubbub is where readers wrote in with their opinions. So many people wrote in to say that the boys should tried civilly and criminally. But they forgot to specify what crime had been committed. Just because you disagree with something doesn’t make it a crime. Even if we all disagree with it, that doesn’t mean it is a crime. The law and morality are not the same thing.
well, the obvious belief is that they kids are guilty of sexual harassment, but I honestly think the case there is really weak. Simply put, the kids are guilty of being annoying teenagers. That’s just not a crime, no matter how badly anyone’s feelings are hurt.
As stated in comments above, they could alternatively be guilty of libel, but that’s only the case if you can prove they knowingly lied about something. “Katherine has nice boobs” is not libel, nor is “Katherine is a slut” because those would just be opinions. “Katherine gave a blowjob to Johnny Depp” could be libelous, but only if you can prove that A) you didn’t blow Depp and B) I know that you didn’t blow Depp but said it specifically to defame your character. That’s important. Libel involves the allegations being false and the writer being malicious, which specifically means that the writer either knows the allegation is false or has reckless disregard to the truth. Thus, I don’t really need to witness you blowing Depp. If he tells me that you blew him and I have no reason to disbelieve him, then when I print it I’m not guiltly of libel (he may be guilty of slander, if you didn’t actually blow him). Furthermore, if I have every reason to believe that you blew Depp, like maybe you had a date with him and then later someone saw him getting a blowjob in the parking lot, and no one really saw your face, but everyone assumed it was you and therefore it was common belief that you blew Depp, even though in reality it was Steph who just hooked up with him after your date, then again, I am still not being libelous by reporting on it. And finally, if you’re known to have blown Grieco, Peter DeLuise, Dustin Nguyen, Steven Williams and went down on Holly Robinson, then it probably doesn’t really “defame your character” to say that you blew Depp too. It’s all very complex. But at the end of the day, I don’t think you can prove that these boys were attempting to defame the character of the girls. In fact, I’d say their point was more a misguided attempt to score with them (or help their friends do so), so its definitely a weak case at best.
Now, I haven’t read the list because I couldn’t find it, but its entirely possible we could charge them with bad grammar.
Next time you talk to Johnny Depp, let him know I’d be happy to blow him.
Katherine is such a slut. 🙂
Only for Johnny, Hugh, Jude, and Orlando.
I heard you went down on Peter Deluise…. on a good note, though, he gave you an A-
LIBEL!
No it’s not… it’s only libel if you can find some way to proove to me that you can do better (or worse) than an A-…. Hmmm… what comes to mind…
My main problem with this is that the girls are being treated like property. Seriously, I understand the constraints of not being able to talk to the victims here (and yeah, they are victims of harassment, but not of rape), but there must have been one girl from the school – on the list or not – and over the age of 18 who could have made a statement.
Does a list like this create a hostile learning environment? Eh. Probably. But since the gov’t compells students to school, I’d say that the sexual harassment issue is a poor case to make.
If it’s done off school property, without school resources, and no gov’t money is involved, there’s precious little the gov’t can do.
And the girls shouldn’t be sheltered by their parents. If anything’s going to empower them, it’s the ability to speak out against their harassers. Surely the high school has some quasi-feminist club or even a female Student Board member willing to denounce this. Someone should speak on behalf of the girls who’s not claiming ownership of their bodies as their parents/school officials seem to.
Also, the school should respond by getting sexual assault peer educators to come in to talk to the kids. I did this when I was in DC and it was always a good way to foster discussion about gender roles, harassment, assault and rape – real, productive debate and discussion that’d have the kids yelling and giggling and crying all at once. Opening a dialogue, rather than cutting all forms of speech off, is the way to do this.
There’s also the small matter of being told that kicking an assailant in the nuts is a bad idea. A pen in the ear canal, however, can work wonders. Arm people with that knowledge and see how respectful those boys start being.
Well said. Well you know, if you want to be all serious about everything. 🙂
Actually, I quite agree with much of this, and that’s what I was getting at. I have no problem with the school frowning upon this. I’m ok with a mandatory assembly denouncing sexual harrassment. If it can indeed be proven that the ballots or list were produced or distributed on school property, I could even see detention or similar disciplinary action. But even as far as sexual harassment goes, this is just extremely tame. So I can’t see taking actual legal action. I understand that some people are more sensitive to sexual harassment than others. I understand that there are different views of appropriateness. That said, I think its wrong to infringe upon one student’s constitutional rights to make another student feel better. In the end, no damage was done to these girls. None at all. Maybe they feel bad, and that’s a shame. But they weren’t actually injured. They weren’t actually even permanently emotionally harmed. There was no malice behind it. Its a tough world, out there. High school is supposed to prepare you for that. I’m of the belief that overly punishing these boys won’t at all teach them a lesson other than perhaps a mistrust of the system and in reality will have the ultimate effect of giving the girls who were “victems” unrealistic views of society and the world, thus making them more fragile and susceptible to harassment in the future. In any case, I’m quite certain that if this goes much further, the ACLU will be all over it.
Overreaction
I think the parents involved need to open their eyes. How many high schools DON’T have a list like this in circulation? My high school sure did. The worst ones are the ones that rate the girl on how she was in bed — AND list the number of guys polled for that figure. Parents NEVER want to find a daughter’s name on that kind of list…
I feel the second type of list does far more injury. So does the law. In fact, this second type of list can even be illegal, because it may break laws of libel — IF someone brags dishonestly. To be “libel,” a statement must be written in a public forum, bear the potential for harm (even if just to reputation), and be untrue.
In the list this article is about, it would seem little else was harmed but a few girls’ pride, because they scored lower than they’d hoped, or didn’t make the list at all. Not a crime, because there is no proving Amy doesn’t have a nice ass… And it’s a far cry from rape. “Rape” is a seriously harmful crime, and we should not cheapen the power of that word by levelling it with simple name-calling.
Re: Overreaction
yeah, as I’ve said elsewhere, the cheapening of the word rape is the thing that gets to me more than anything else. It really really really bothers me in fact.
As for the damages, I was talking with about this as well. All that was hurt was some girls’ pride. As far as I can tell, none of the girls on the list have actually complained about anything, and even if they did, you have to give them some leeway. You do have the right to learn in a safe environment, you don’t have the right to have a life free of insult and assholes. At the end of the day, all the boys did was write some childish drivel. At some point you just need to lear to deal with such things because they’re gonna happen. But at another point, even if you don’t like it, that doesn’t mean you have the right to stop it.
I know it sounds cold of me. I understand. I understand that in particular women are going to be more sensitive to this type of thing than men. And I feel bad about it, but I really believe that free speech is the foundation of a civilized democracy. Without the ability to speak freely in ways that might be offensive to others, there can be no abolishment of slavery, no women’s right to vote, no legalized abortion. Without Playboy Magazine, Howard Stern and Debbie Does Dallas, there can be no Utne Reader, Oprah or Schindlers List. Is anything positive likely to come from a bunch of kids publishing a newsletter of girls they think are hot? Well, probably not, but unless you let them try, then we’ll never have stuff like “Natural Cures They Don’t Want You to Know About?” Negative art and social commentarty, is just as important as positive. Possibly even more so.
Re: Overreaction
Yeah, like I said, it was an overreaction. Americans are so lawsuit crazy. It’s pathetic. I also think we over-protect our young. It really does not help them learn to cope with trauma for their adult lives. And how many American kids would know what to do if civil war broke out tomorrow? In Viet Nam, the kids picked up guns like everyone else…
Hi. You don’t know me, but I know
marmal8. Yesterday, we went to the Museum of Modern Art to see Munch, and two out of these three were hanging there on the wall
Now to say something on the subject of your post (since this is a reply to it): sexual harassment or not, the boys were definitely misbehaving. And, therefore, they need to be disciplined. However, and this is what I had said to Katherine, the most pressure and punishment can come from their parents, and not from the school or the parents of the girls. And the boys’ parents won’t do a thing. What’s the school going to do, suspend them? Sheesh.
Welcome,
Well, my issue is with the concept of “wrong” they were kinda assholes, maybe. But was it really wrong? Social behavior like that is a matter for the parents, as you said. So its up to the individual parent to decide what is and isn’t acceptable behavior for their children. I’m of the opinion that this is actually quite natural behavior, and other than saying “look just don’t be disruptive in school, because in society you have to exercise some restraint” there’s not really much you can or should do about it. Boy are going to talk about hot girls. Especially at 16, but I do it today. That’s just what we do. Its the equivalent of banning lockerroom talk. And if you do that, we really don’t have anything left.
Well…
okay, so we’re all ticked. Just like chrismaverick.
Now for something of a thought: it simply isn’t crass men do this. It’s us. Women do this. I let my slightly gayer half shine once and got let in on man-objectification discussions.
It’s so not-crass that it’s even good. This is not homecoming court, based on networking or popularity, it’s the top 25 pretty girls. I’d even facilitate this kind of behavior, and it could tell us where we’re going as a society as far as what kind of physical forms are attractive.
Re: Well…
Exactly! See, that’s my point. its not even necessarilly a bad thing. And for the record, I am facilitating this behavior. Or I’m attempting to, anyway. For just that reason. I like seeing where we as a society (or the microcasm of society that is LJ) look for beauty.
So if you have a moment, fill out a ballot in my Hottest List Survey on the next post.