Mickie James
mostly picked her for suicideking
as a return favor.
on juggs…
So this past weekend I was having dinner with the lovely sundaygray and the talented beststephi (actually, they’re both both, but I aske Steph, which she wanted to be referred to as and she picked talented) and the subject turned to one of everyone’s favorite topics. BREASTESES! Specifically, we spoke about breast augmentation.
Then, yesterday on the the Colbert Report, his guest was feminist, Ariel Levy, author of Female Chauvinist Pigs: Women and the Rise of Raunch Culture, and she made a snide comment about Girls Gone Wild having breast implants that kind of stuck in my mind as well. There’s something that has always bothered me about a lot of women’s attitudes towards boob jobs. Specifically their disdain for other women who have gotten them. It never really made sense to me. I could see jealousy. If you’re a woman with small breasts, it makes perfect sense to be jealous of a woman with bigger breasts. It makes perfect sense to be jealous over anything you don’t have. If someone is smarter than you, you’re jealous of the their intelligence, fine. But no one (for the most part) disdains someone for going to school or reading to improve their intelligence. Why not? If you diet to lose weight, no one disdains you for that.
When we were at dinner Jill theorized that maybe its because when you get implants you haven’t “earned” it. But I’d argue that you earned the money for the surgery. At least a lot more so than someone who just happens to have been born with nice boobs. Both Steph and Jill agreed that they’re nowhere near as jealous of women who naturally have bigger chests. Other women have admitted that to me in the past as well. So it appears that its simply something about the artificialness of it.
I once hear comedian, Kathy Griffith rant on the Howard Stern show against boob jobs but then admit that she’d gotten a nose job and it wasn’t the same thing. Why not?
I’ve heard many guys say they don’t like breast implants because they “look unnatural.” That almost makes more sense, to me. Maybe a little shallow (and we all know how much I hate being shallow) but it makes more sense. After all, its totally natual to have preferences in the kinds of people we’re attracted to. I like long hair better than short hair, for instance. But that’s a prime example. Why do we make fun of women that have gotten weaves? Is it your hair? Yes, I bought it.
The girls asked me how it would make me feel if the magazines were full of men who got penis implants. Well, that’s quite simple. I’d feel like they were almost as big as me. 😛 Seriously, it would either not bother me (much like it doesn’t bother me if guys take steroids to be bigger than me) or it would and I’d save up my money and get a penis implant. I certainly wouldn’t claim that it was somehow anti-masculinist (is there a good counterpart to feminism for men?) to want to have a bigger wang.
So that’s my question. As a woman would you ever consider getting a breast job? (There are at least two women reading this who have personally told me that they’d consider getting a reduction, I’d say that counts too) As a man, would you consider some kind of penis enlarging surgery. As either gender are you somehow put off by people who’d go through such surgeries and do you feel like it somehow hurts the people who don’t?
on journals…
In other news, my old friend and classmate, Les Kay, wrote me the other day to let me know that he and his wife (another old friend and classmate) had started a literary journal, The Ward 6 Review. They are taking submissions for fiction and poetry and I promised him I’d pimp it out to those who might be interested. Members of the
on jams…
Still haven’t totally made up my mind about whether or not to have a halloween party. Steph seems to be leaning towards yes, and sometimes I’m thinking I want to, but other times I feel like I’d be just as content to go to mistergone and martinivixen‘s. I know other people are planning on hitting that up, but several people have asked me if I was bringing back Halloween Jam this year. I just don’t know. But I need to decide soon. So, I ask you, noble reader, should there be a Halloween Jam or no? If there is one, it would be on the 28th. Would you be available that day? Would you want to come?
It’s kind of the same thing where some say that people who get gastric bypass surgery are taking the “easy way out” because they aren’t losing their weight through hard work and exercise. A defence mechanism to try and convince yourself that you’re superior to something that makes you feel inferior.
As far as boobies go, my wife had a breast reduction only a couple months after we started dating and she says it’s the best decision she could have made. I’ve got nothing to complain about. 😉
that’s another good example. I certainly don’t think anyone should be forced to have gastric bypass if they don’t want it, but I don’t see any reason to look down on them if they do either. Its a personal choice they make.
Personally, I don’t like breast implants, but I just find them aesthetically displeasing. I don’t generally care for really large boobs, but I find natural really large boobs more aesthetically pleasing than implant really large boobs. I’ve seen some boob jobs that took the patient from totally flat to an A or B, and I didn’t think those looked bad.
I’m all about people getting whatever body modifications they want. I see boob jobs as the same as tattoos or what-have-you. And I might think that some tattoos look like shit, and I might think that most boob jobs look like shit, but I’m all about the person getting them if that’s what they want.
I wouldn’t consider an augmentation myself, as I prefer medium-sized boobs personally, and because it wouldn’t be important to me. I’d consider reduction if my boobs were ginormous and caused me back problems definitely, and just for aesthetic value if they didn’t cause me back problems but I just didn’t like them.
see, that’s a different. That’s more what I was getting at with guys who say they don’t like implants. I think that’s a fine point of view. Just like its fine to say you don’t like girls who are “too fat” or “too skinny” or men who are “too short” or “too tall” or like you said, not loking tattoos. That’s entirely different than the opinion of people who say that its anti-feminist to want implants.
People who say it’s “anti-feminist” for someone else to do what that someone else wants to do with that someone else’s body piss me off. What they’re saying is that that someone else doesn’t fit THEIR idea of how women should look and behave. Anyone whose idea of “feminism” is “Don’t act and dress like traditional society wants you to! Act and dress like *I* want you to!” has no sympathy from me. (Nor does anyone whose idea of “feminism” includes thinking things without penises are inherrently better than things with penises, but that’s another rant altogether.)
EXACTLY! That’s actually the main reason for my dislike of the very word feminism. Sure there are some good ideas there, but the very word has too much baggage now. Of course, I won’t identify myself as any political party so its no wonder I feel that way.
But that was in particular what I am commenting on. The “feminist” idea that in some respect the behavior of individual women hurts all women. If a woman wants to implant silicone balloons in her chest, she should have just as much right as she does to have a mass of subdividing cells removed from her uterus. To disdain the traits that you don’t like is to weaken your argument in support of those traits you do.
1) You cannot call someone “shallow” in a discussion of aesthetics. I mean, you can, but you should accept the fact that it makes you a head-up-the-ass pretentious wanker. And that’s what we’re talking about: aesthetics. Well, except you might have distain for someone who gets breast implants because they reduce nipple sensitivity.
2) It’s the goddamn 21st century. You can change your mind, and you can change your body. Getting breast implants (elective surgery and cost concerns aside) is little different that getting tattoos or ear piercings. Or wearing makeup (relative permanence aside). I mean, there are many (in my mind) valid reasons to not want to get breast implants. Enough that I think getting them is probably a bad decision. But it’s not my decision to make (unless it’s my boobelies that we’re taking about), so if you really want to, go for it.
2b) I would not get penile enhancement, because I like my wife in one piece.
2c) If I were hung like whitey, I still probably wouldn’t, `cause I suspect that functionality would be impaired. And, you know, elective surgery etc.
Bonus) I don’t object to guys who get pec/bicep/etc implants, except to the extent that they’re putting a coffee can on the end of their tailpipe and claiming that they’ve got a racing exhaust system. Pec implants do not make you strong, cape does not allow wearer to fly. A sad world. But, you know, I object to muscle-masquerading implants because the real thing is achievable and I think you’re just a dork for not going down to the gym and listing heavy objects. But, you know, if it makes you happy, go for it. Just don’t be surprised when I giggle.
I don’t think the guys who get pec implants care if they’re strong; they care about attracting shallow women.
And I don’t care if I’m a pretentious wanker.
Well, since you’re a pretentious wanker, and I’m a pretentious wanker, let’s think about this (too much). Both the pec implant crowd and the big exhaust tip crowd are adopting the look of something that has usefulness (strength and an aftermarket exhaust system) at lower cost (money and gym time) without getting the functional benefits. (In fact, both are probably getting the opposite effect.)
Now, in both cases, the affected attribute is probably actually not that important. However, I suggest that the affected attribute (strength) is more important to the target market (shallow women driven by biological urges) than it is with breast implants. (The affected attribute being milk production capacity, I guess.) My reasoning being that even in the limited period of a one-night stand, a strong man will be able to live up to the strong man expectation of his partner. If you believe my ramblings,* then pec implants are sillier than breast implants.
* This whole argument falls apart when you realize that, of course, once you’ve gotten your partner into a situation where she has the ability to adequately judge you strength, you’re probably going to achieve your goal anyway. Sort of how man might experience some disappointment at the removal of a padded bra, but not that much disappointment.
I don’t think I buy your postulates that pecs are only useful for lifting/pushing stuff and breasts for giving milk and therefore your conclusion falls apart. I’d argue that during the one-night stand, the both implants likely perform their functions more than adequately.
at least you admit it. 🙂
I expect the pec implant guys don’t care if they’re shallow, either.
1) Two separate issues here. See, I hate when people dismiss pretty much anything as shallow. I don’t see how its any worse to have a thing for 6 foot blondes with double D cups than it is to have a thing for girls with 150 IQs who work for the peace corps. Hell, maybe you want a brainy peace corps blonde and huge tits. Nothing wrong with that.
But I was more talking more of looking down on someone else who does it. Or claiming that the amount of work/money it takes somehow makes it good or bad.
2) Exactly
2b) Considering the reduction then?
2c) But if every supermarket magazine featured men in tight clothes with 8 pound buldges in their pants, would you be tempted? That was the crux of Steph and Jill’s argument, i think. That some how the prevalence of the image forces low self esteem on others. On the other hand, I’m around wrestlers with buldging muscles well beyond mine all the time, and it really doesn’t bug me enough to make me want to do anything about it either. So I suspect I wouldn’t. But even if I did. Well, so what? I think that should be my choice.
Bonus) well, that’s the difference. If having small boobies or too big a nose bothers you, there’s not really a “natural” way to fix it. And if technology can help you feel better about yourself, go for it. But I don’t really care if there’s a natural way or not. There are natural ways to lose weight, but I’m not against gastric bypass either, if that’s what the person wants. And there’s no natural way to grow back an arm that’s been amputated, but if a guy wants to get a prosthesis, good for him.
I’m one of the ones that wants a reduction. Not because they look bad (because I hear that they look great) but because they truly hurt my back.
I’m not jealous of girls with bigger boobs or smaller boobs. I just deal with myself, if that makes sense. Like I hate my thighs, but I don’t look at girls and go “wow I wish I had her thighs”. I just judge myself by what I think looks good on me. Which sounds kind of odd, I suppose.
ok, but if you had someone technological way of giving yourself perfect thighs for some amount of money that you felt you could afford, would you take it?
It’s Nicki, but I’m too lazy to log into my own account…
To be honest, I wouldn’t do it unless it was an extremely low amount of risk and money. And plastic surgery right now is very risky and very expensive. I can justify spending $300 on a treadmill, but I couldn’t justify $300 on plastic surgery. Maybe because a treadmill will help me be healthy and plastic surgery will only fix my appearance.
That’s not to say that I’m not vain about my own appearance because I totally am. At 21, I am very concerned about how I look. But I can’t justify spending money on plastic surgery (although I am considering Invisalign braces, which amounts to the same thing as plastic surgery).
that’s just the point. I’d count the treadmill as the same thing.
Personal Decision
i think breast implants or reduction are totally up to the person.
like i had to get over the fact that my ex got rid of her mole on her face
i liked it alot and it messed up how i pictured her
but in the end it is her choice
and judging someone for doing something they want to do
is not your concern
making sure they are happy with their change is
Re: Personal Decision
exactly… hmmm… I was really expecting someone to have the opposing opinion by now.
I’ve never really given implants much thought in terms of being for or against them, but I guess I do look down on women who get them. I feel like they’re wasting their money on something that’s both shallow and that makes people look at them as sex objects rather than human beings.
ok… good, finally someone copping to the opposite view. now I can ak questions.
but why do you care:
1) its not your money. and
2) why is it any more shallow than getting a tattoo, as others pointed out here. Is it just that men find it desirable? Because some men don’t. And some men are really into tattoos.
3) Why is it shallow at all. Everyone wants to feel sexy/beautiful/attractive. If you don’t, and you haven’t for your entire life, and you can do something about it for $5000. Wouldn’t it be worth it? I mean, what if it weren’t breasts. What if you were born bald and incapabale of growing hair, but you could fix that for $5000. Would you do it? What if you had advanced vitiligo, would you spend money on fixing that? Heck, do you ever dye your hair? Where does the line of shallow begin?
I don’t care on a personal level – like I said, I don’t have a vendetta against them, having never really thought about them until this post. But I see so many intelligent and attractive women who are frustrated by the way men refuse to treat them as equals in the professional world, and the problem is enhanced (no pun intended) for women with larger cup sizes. Why the stereotype that hurts them? Because of bimbos with implants.
It’s not necessarily, on a case by case basis, more shallow than a tatoo. However, more often than not, I’ve seen people getting tatoos because they want to commemorate something or make something a part of themselves. Breast implants tend to be more about “making you feel better” – when people get tatoos to “makes themselves feel better” they often regret it within five years.
As for what’s wrong with using implants to “make yourself feel more attractive,” don’t even get me started. Ignoring the health issues, the back issues, the numerous recalls and cancer scares (none of which will help make you feel better about yourself after the first three months of “yay! new boobies!” wears off), there’s the issues that people who change their bodies randomly to feel better will not feel better. I hated my nose for awhile, and it took me a lot of thinking to realize that would find SOMETHING else wrong with either my nose or face if I got a nose job. People who are overweight and change their body image don’t feel better because they got lipo, they feel better because they have a goal, they have endorphins from exercise, they have something they’re Doing each day. A new job, or a new hobby makes people feel better about themselves, not a new ass or chin or breasts.
I don’t know that I agree with the last paragraph. I’ve talked to several people who have had plastic surgery who are quite pleased with it years later and certainly after the 3 month “yay new boobies” thing wears off. It’s all a value system. And I know for sure there are people who have gotten lipo or gastric bypass and perfectly happy about it. And some who aren’t. I think its all a personal value system.
Well, of coruse it’s a personal value system. Otherwise what would be the point of opening it to discussion? It would just be a set in stone response. My value system just happens to be the right one. 😉
More seriousmy, since you are talking about the majority of women feeling anti-implants, I am responding by explaining that it’s due to the majority of womens’ reasons for getting them. I’m sure there are people who have other reasons or are happy forever after years of hating their flat chests, but those aren’t the ones who I’m talking about.
yep, that’s what I was asking and your answer is fair and reasonable. Well, except for the part where you’re wrong. My value system is the correct one. 😛
I think that the reason some women find implants shallow is because it’s against what feminism is all about: it’s women “reducing” themselves to simply being sex objects, like they need that attention on their chest rather than on their personality/brain.
I can’t say I’d judge someone for getting reductions because I can imagine super huge breasts are painful.
A gastric bypass can also be done for health, not just for aesthetics, so I can’t see how we can compare that.
But bigger boobs? That’s all for aesthetics.
sure… that’s the argument, but I’d say its a load of hooey. 🙂 After all, you comb your hair every day. You wear clothes you think are attractive. Those are simply done for aesthetics as well, right? How is that not reducing yourself to a sex object. What about getting a tattoo? Or wearing contacts instead of glasses?
My take:
Boob implants are fine if you want them. It’s yer money, yer body, yer back ache.
No one complains that Eddie Murphy wasn’t really made of green clay when he was Gumby. No one bitches that Pam Anderson isn’t really 6’2″ when she wears heels. When Someone syes their hair, no one gets huffy about it. Making yourself look a certain way is all about deception. Picking one trait and saying that fake=bad is hypocritical.
But really, it’s not about big boobs, it’s all about the good boobs.
Oh, and kudos for the Mickie James picts. She’s HAWT… and she totally wants me.
Yeah, I pretty much expected you to agree with me on this one. And I pretty much agree 100% with all of your examples.
I will totally tell Mickie that you’re next in line after I’m done with her.
I defnitely fall into the “implants are ugly” camp in most cases. (And stomach bypass is a totally different arena of “things that are more harmful than good, but pitched as quick fixes”) I’m also personally adverse to non-essential surgury, but I fully recognize that it’s a personal dislike.
But my big issue deals with motivations. I’m all for people having a sense of personal asthetics and striving to lok the way they want to look or their own personal goals of health. That’s a positive motivation, and if you really think that you need bigger breasts to look the way you want to, that’s fine.
Hell, I’m working on pretty major weightloss at the moment, and when I hit a point that’s rgiht for me, I’m going to have to consider that myself though I’d probably look at it from a hormonal rather than surgical angle. Just as superficial, really, but that’s my preference.
It’s when the decisions isn’t made from a point of confidence that I have problems. Not “I’d like how bigger breasts would look on me” but “I feel inadequate because my breasts are too small”. That’s where the problem starts- espcially when such insecurity is preyed upon for profit rather than addressed directly and treated in some way or another.
The problem isn’t that there are women who want breast augmentation, but that our culture actively generates insecurity in people, then uses that to profit off of them. Instead of helping them find a more balanced and secure view of themselves from which they can make positive decisions, we build bigger and bigger insecurities and encourage people to act against their own best interests.
Agreed – and I think that’s the foundation for the reaction of looking down on the people who get the implants. Because they didn’t just buy an aesthetic enhancement – they bought the bullshit from our society that they weren’t good enough the way they were, or that they would have more value with bigger breasts. When in fact, all they’d have is bigger breasts (or in the case of implants, the semblance of bigger breasts).
We “look down” on the women who we perceive as buying into the system, as said, that doesn’t give a shit about what’s good for them, but benefits by exploiting the desire we all have to feel attractive and loveable. In the same way that you “look down” on the geek or outcast who’s fawning at the feet of a cool kid, does whatever he says while everyone else laughs at his subjugation and looks down on him even more, while the loser can’t tell because he’s finally getting some attention and approval. It’s not disdain for the kid’s motivation – you empathize with that, but it’s hard to keep out the disdain for how he’s willing to lower himself to get the approval he needs. Same thing when women perceive other women to be getting breast implants to be more attractive – they’re missing out on their own value, and the value and beauty other women want to protect and proclaim and celebrate and even flaunt that is inherent in the female body, whatever proportions it may come in. Hence the anti-feminist claim, I would think.
And there’s also the personal level emotional response. Getting breast implants send the message that “naturally smaller breasts aren’t good enough for me” which basically counts as a vote in the world at large that “naturally smaller breasts aren’t good enough,” so women who get implants are effectively insulting and devaluing the breasts of women whose are naturally smaller and who don’t choose to get implants. And this on top of that message coming from the media and “boob guys”, we now are getting it from other small-breasted women. It’s adding insult to injury and pisses people off.
IMOs =)
ok, that I’ll actually kind of agree to. A woman has small breasts. She buys implants. She in essence votes that small breasts are bad. For her! A woman has blonde hair. She dyes it red. She in essence votes that blonde hair is bad. For her! Every morning I put on deoderant to mask my natural underarm smell. I shave the hair off my cheeks to pretend my face looks different than it naturally does. To take‘s point above, picking one trait to claim fake=bad is hypocritical. To argue that getting breast implants is somehow worse than wearing lipstick is essentially prooving that having nice breasts is important. If it didn’t matter, then no one would complain about those who choose to do it.
certainly interesting and fair issues, but I consider it a side issue. The reason for someones desires is irrelevant. Their body their choice. To do otherwise would be to say that women could only choose abortions in certain circumstances.
[[The reason for someones desires is irrelevant.]]
The reason is very relevant.
no its not. The law and society shouldn’t conform to the desires of the individual simply the rights of the individual. Take my abortion issue. I am pro-choice. I think there are a lot of good reasons to have an abortion. But I can’t say “you can only have an abortion if Mav thinks its a good idea.” Maybe a woman wants an abortion because she doesn’t want children. Maybe she wants one because she doesn’t want stretch marks. Who are we to judge?
Similarly, if it were left ip to me, women would be forced to wear their hair long. There’s noting wrong with short hair mind you. I just like long hair better. At least usually. There are some people who look good with short hair. But I can’t say “you can only have a haircut if Mav thinks its a good idea.” Maybe a woman wants short hair because she looks pretty with it. Maybe she is just too lazy to care for long hair. Who are we to judge?
I’d say breast augementation lies somewhere along the body modification continuum between haircuts and abortion. Therefore, I’d argue that the rules that apply to both of them should apply to boob jobs as well.
And umm… wow… you’re digging into the blogosphere past today, aren’t you? what made you come back to this?
[[The problem isn’t that there are women who want breast augmentation, but that our culture actively generates insecurity in people, then uses that to profit off of them. Instead of helping them find a more balanced and secure view of themselves from which they can make positive decisions, we build bigger and bigger insecurities and encourage people to act against their own best interests.]]
An extremely articulate expression of the way I feel about this issue.
I am against any sort of cosmetic surgery outside of that for repairing some disfigurament (like after a mastectomy, or some sort of accident) or for gender reassignment surgery. I would never, ever get anything done myself for reasons other than the former. I’m just hoping I won’t end up needing a reduction, like two of my first cousins and at least one of their daughters.
Wow. I find that very interesting. I’ve already detailed my reasons for considering other people’s plastic surgery choices their own damn business. But I find it quite interesting that you make the exception for gender reassignment. That seems quite contradictory and hypocritical. Why does a man who wants to become a woman have more right to breast augmentation than a woman?
I’m in favor of Halloween jam, if for no other reason than I plan to have a wicked costume this year, and it’d be nice to maybe win something.
I’m actually leaning towards having one… I just wish I could get a reasonably accurate count of who would be interested.
I think you should have one.
I just think you should hold it in Boston or NYC.
yeah… that would be successful. 🙂
you know, you could just move… 😛
Wang enhancement…
If its a microsized birth defect or something, I could definatley understand. But as Sue on the “Sunday Night Sex Show” said… the negative possiblities far out weigh the positives and if you have a little bit, thats all that should be needed unless its porn.
But seriously though, that has to be dangerous and thats a part of my body I really dont want anything going wrong.
Till I’m told its not enough, I dont worry. And if I’m ever told that… I shall simply insist she is loose, a whore, and I need to spread those rumors fast. lol
Re: Wang enhancement…
always a gentleman, you are…