Day 404 of 365 More.
If a photographer posts in the middle of flickr and there is no one there to see it, has he really posted?
I kind of feel like no.
So we’re now past 24 hours of me being marked moderate on flickr and casual viewers not being able to see my photos. I am very depressed about it. I know it sounds silly, but you have no idea how much of my mentality is wrapped up in being an artist these days. That’s why I was always so careful about moderating my photos.A lot of people would actually tell me "oh, that’s not bad nudity, you can post that" and I wouldn’t because I didn’t want to take the chance of being censored. Now I have been.
Last night I went through and marked everything I had tagged nude as moderate, including implied nudes that showed no actual naughty bits. I have always been very good about tagging as well. I had written flickr several times asking what guidelines they wanted me to follow and each time they simply explained to me how to moderate things (I already knew) and not what I was doing that was over the line. I asked for a re-review. I was denied and told:
You still need to be more restrictive in moderating your photostream. You might consider leaving your account classified as "moderate" just to be on the safe side.
Which I considered to be about the most condescending thing ever. Fine, its not my site. It’s yahoo’s, and rules are rules. But I have repeatedly said (across 5 messages yesterday) that I was willing to comply if I was simply told what it was that they had a problem with. They have refused.
I have now marked every shot I have ever taken that was nude, implied nude, or lingerie as "moderate." This is far more restrictive than just about anyone that I pay attention to.
I am at a loss. I depend on this site as a creative outlet. It is a way to show my work to an audience that I might not normally encounter. Yes, I am aware that people can still see my stuff if they are looking for me specifically, but honestly, I was popular enough on LJ and through my own website that anyone who was already aware of me knew where to find me. What I loved most about this site was that people who I had never heard of before and who never heard of me, were able to simply encounter me and give feedback. I said this sometime ago, during that whole being unemployed thing, that even without a job for a significant portion of it, that first year of 365 was possibly the happiest that I’d ever been in my life as an artist. Even the first time I had a short story published didn’t make me feel that way. It wasn’t about the money. It wasn’t about the showing off. It was about the fact that I had a direct link to people I didn’t know who would tell me that something I did changed their lives. That is gone now.
I have been a flickr member since December 5th, 2004. I have posted faithfully every single day for the 365 days project for 404, straight days. I have had hundreds if not thousands of people tell me directly how much I have touched and changed their lives. It has meant the world to me.
There have been good days and bad days. But in all honesty, today is the first day that I have ever, EVER wanted to simply quit.
There aren’t many things in this life that I actively care about. There really aren’t. Despite what it may seem like, I’m really just kind of a cynical, depressed, asshole of a guy. I may have a heart of gold, but at essence, that’s what I am. This was one of those few things I cared about.
And now I feel like its gone.
What’s the point?
Ooooh, Mav… I love this.
Don’t quit. This is fantastic. And I’d totally miss you.
@jessi.: what’s the point of not quitting. I clearly have no idea whatsoever what they want from me. At this point every single shot that shows any flesh whatsoever, full nudity or implied is marked moderate. Every single lingerie shot is marked moderate. At 12:21 tonight I wrote in saying that I had done so:I do not want my account marked as moderate. I have asked on several occasions for you to give me a guideline as to what I am doing that you consider to be over the line. This is not intended to be combative. I am not arguing. I am simply unsure of what it is flickr has a problem with, and therefore don’t know what you want marked. Yesterday when I wrote I had marked every single nude and implied nude. I have now gone through and marked every nude and every lingerie shot I have ever taken as moderate. I personally consider that overkill, but am willing to comply if that is the policy. I am asking for a re-review, and if I don’t qualify, I’d please like either an explanation or at the very least an example of one of my photos that is causing a problem so that I know what to avoid.
Again, I thank you for your time. This was, the sixth message I had written asking what guideline I was breaking and saying I had every intention of complying if I was told what rule I was breaking. Even so I have done my best to simply guess, hence me marking everything so heavily. I got a response 9 minutes later at 12:30: The response was:You have images that need to be moderated in a more restrictive manner. Since you refuse to make the necessary changes, it’s best that your account stay classified as "moderate".So I pretty much am without options. In nine minutes, they either determined that I was still so offensive I am not suitable for public consumption and composed a reply or they never looked. In any case, that’s pretty much it.
I’m obviously very upset, but I’ve done my best to be as polite as possible with every single message. I was willing to acknowledge that any remotely sexual image was forbidden. I removed them all. I am still blocked. I have been told that I’ll stay that way.
For the last year and 39 days I have poured my heart and soul into this project. I really have. There were days when I barely wanted to live, much less post a portrait, but i did it because I wanted to build something. I think i DID build something. But the whole point was to share what I was building. It is simply too much work if I can’t do that.
Seriously. This sucks. I hope they get you fixed…give it a few days…beg a little more if necessary. Hopefully they’ll see the light.
Tell them how popular you are!
I really hope this gets fixed, Mav. Good luck.
Oh shit. I just read your last response. This is crazy! WTF?!?!?
@d.rex: as per my last message (see my response to Jessi) they’ve pretty much told me they aren’t fixing it. Honestly I’m at a loss as to what to do.
I am sorry that this has happened to you and I can understand your frustration. But don’t leave, don’t quit because of a silly system. They’ll get your account fixed again and you will be able to get that interaction with the world outside.
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Seen in my contacts’ photos. (?)
Hey Mav…
I just changed my safe filter and I could still see some boobies…
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrismaverick/1128551710/in/set-721...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrismaverick/1260409823/in/set-721...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrismaverick/1154327899/in/set-721...
(and others)
Maybe there’s just a lag in the changes you made? Or did you miss those?
@d.rex: yeah, I know. Like I said, I really don’t know what to do now.
@KatColorado: like I said above. If they have no intent on fixing it, I don’t know that there’s any point in continuing, and if I am reading it right, that’s essentially what they’ve said. I don’t get any recourse. Honestly, I’m not even sure they’ve really reviewed it. As far as I can tell, there’s not a single picture of anyone even in their underwear that is marked safe in my stream at this point. (its hard to tell since all pics report themselves as moderate to me even if I have them marked as safe). I went through and changed them all in organizr (which is the only tool that lets me do so now). I’ve asked 6 times what pics are offensive and been given no answer. Technically I don’t even actually know that they are the ones of a sexual or nude nature. That was simply a guess. If that’s wrong, I have no idea at all what it is, because I don’t really do violence, other than the most comicbooky kind.
Honestly, given the speed of the response, I don’t really believe that a review of my account was done this most recent time. They are claiming I am unwilling to moderate though each time I have marked more and more pictures, and said I am willing to abide by the guidelines. Not to single out any of my friends, but I know for a fact that I have gone WELL beyond what any of them would have considered appropriate based on their streams on this last review. And still I was given a no response in 9 minutes flat.
I do appreciate everyone’s support over all this time, but I don’t need to pay flickr or yahoo for glorified (and honestly inefficient) online file storage. I already have that. There’s no point to flickr for me other than reaching people I don’t already know, and without being able to do that.
That sucks… boo! It’ll get fixed, be persistent and know that you have a lot of people at your side… more than likely, your account was given a once over very quickly. Be persistent, be firm. I wish I had more insight and wisdom to offer, but from past experiences with friends having to deal with Flickr issues…
@d.rex: I certainly didn’t miss those. In fact, those were manually marked as moderate from the get go. As was most of that set. Actually, if you’re truly set to safe you shouldn’t be able to see my stream at all right now. Which leads me to believe that either flickr is broken (which is not my fault and therefore I really don’t think I should be penalized) or you must have somehow told it that it was ok to see my photos.
Let’s try a test. Go to the last pic you mentioned while set to safe: http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrismaverick/1154327899/
I just explicitly marked it as restricted. Let me know if you can see it.
@adayinthelife: I have been persistent. As I said, I’ve sent six messages and received six responses in the last 25 hours. For some reason they seem to think I am being stubborn when I’ve repeatedly said "I’ll do whatever you want. Just let me know what to do"
As an avid observer and a sparse commenter, I feel that my contacts’ photo stream would be severely lacking without your insightful commentary, beautiful photographs, and dedication to your many photography projects.
I realize you feel scapegoated, and I know where you’re coming from. Before this became an issue on your photostream, I never knew that one COULD moderate content, and I had to go through the annoying, slow process of finding nudes, implied nudes, and particularly cleavagey shots and mark them all "moderate" or "restricted." It’s a pain in the ass.
Please don’t leave Flickr. Your 365 days project inspired me to pick up a camera, buy Photoshop, and care about photography. I’ve become more comfortable and more confident about myself. I’m not a photographer, but I’m having fun and I’m learning. Your photos are amazing. They give me something to look forward to and aspire to achieve to just a little bit of what you can achieve. Your Photoshop skills are impressive and each time you come up with something new, I spend hours trying to figure out how you’ve done it.
I’m begging you for patience because I really, really enjoy your work, and while I will probably follow it to another venue, Flickr will simply lose some of its charm.
I can still see it.
A few other notes: if I log out, it tells me I can’t see your stream at all.
If I just make myself into a "safe" user, I can see your stream, but most of your photos (everything on your front page EXCEPT this shot we’re commenting on) are blacked-out.
Check out your A, L & Y set though…
Looking at this, I think there’s some flickr flakiness that’s causing them to think you haven’t tagged things appropriately.
I’m going to bed shortly…but let me know if you’d like me to write them a note (and if so, where to send it). Frankly, I think they owe you an apology.
@d.rex: I actually would love if you’d write them a note, I’m going to as well. In fact, I will CC you on it, and give you the case number if you don’t mind. I know for a fact that the picture that I referenced (2nd column, 3rd row) is marked restricted, and in fact just double checked it. I will send you an IM in a sec with the address that needs to be written to.
Here is a screenshot of the settings for that specific photo:
@gotplaid?: well, right now, it really looks like d.rex is correct and flickr is broken and is calling me out for what is actually their mistake. If they won’t acknowledge that, when we have visual proof right here, then there’s really nothing I can do, and I simply don’t see how I can be a part of this anymore.
I honestly believe Flickr, as a whole, wants to do the right thing.
Hopefully you’ve just run into a situation where people (who are probably used to a lot of stupid users posting things incorrectly) at Flickr are doing the wrong thing because of a software error.
I may be overly optimistic, but I’m betting they will fix this mess. They better.
Yeesh, what a mess. I hope this gets worked out. As to the photo, I love the darkness and I think it really gets your mood across.
@d.rex: I like to believe that as well. What bothers me, is that I think its clear that I’m trying to do the right thing as well. In their most recent response to me they’ve said:There are presently no bugs with the filters system.
The images in question have not been moderated by you. Go back through your entire photostream and make sure you moderate all your images once again to make you didn’t miss anything. It is not uncommon for users to miss some images.Clearly I’m trying to comply, clearly there’s something of mine that they feel doesn’t. If its a software error, there’s nothing I can do. If it’s not a software error, then obviously I don’t know what they’re talking about, and you’d think it’d be easy enough just to say "this here picture is an example of one that should be moderated and isn’t" so I could at least get an idea of what was wrong.
Most recently, I’ve been written back saying "I’m looking at your photostream right now, and there are images you haven’t moderated" even though I’ve gone through and marked every single thing that’s even remotely questionable. (I mean, at this point, I’ve marked girls in binkini tops and skirts). I was told "just go through your stream and make sure you haven’t missed anything" which I have on 3 occasions now (manually, I’m not even using tags anymore). So that leads me to believe there is something specific they have a problem with, and for the life of me I can’t guess what it is….
By my rough estimate, I’ve marked more than 10% of my stream as moderate now (128 photos on my last pass through organizr). So I’m really not sure what I’m missing. Should I be marking anytime I (a male) don’t wear a shirt? Should I be marking pictures of professional wrestlers for violence? Are there pics of girls who simply have skirts that are too short? Honestly, at this point I have no idea what it is that is bothering them, and I can’t get a straight answer as to what. I mean, I know you guys can’t tell because everything appears moderate to you. But I’m being REALLY conservative here. If there’s something I’m missing, I just wish they’d tell me. Or mark that single image themselves (which I know they have the ability to do). Because I have no idea what it is at htis point.
@Sick Little Monkey: thanks. I wish people could see it. 🙂
Flickr have no clue. No one knows how many people work there, but it’s obviously clear that this whole moderation/censorship issue is over-automated. Flickr staff will never give guidelines as they want nothing in writing that could be used against them in a censorship case. (At least, that’s the best explanation I can think of.)
They want to appear open-minded while at the same time, cover their own arses in case someone’s unattended, free-range progeny catches sight of a nipple. This is why they put the self-moderation thing into effect. Unfortunately, Flickr’s membership and posting grow exponentially every day and I know there’s no way they can keep up with it, so we all suffer.
I hope you can hang in there Chris, a lot of my contacts took off during the Great German Censorship Debacle and I miss them. And I can’t afford to commute from New Orleans to Pittsburgh often enough to see your work.
what a mess. I really hope this will turn out in a "simple" organisation problem, but even if it does it leaves a very bad taste. You are going so far to find out what they want and get preformed answers.
I wished I could help, but I fear my English is too limited to do any good. As I can see it there are others who know how to express themselves and who are very much on your side. *hug*
god. I understand your total misery with this chris, really. I remember before they changed it to this safe,moderate, restricted nonsense i got nipsa’d and it was the worst feeling. if there’s anything you want us to test just call out, there are lots of us here willing! and if you want anyone to write a supportive note in your favour i’ll happily be second in line 🙂 (after dave, heh).
I hope you can hold on and get this resolved, i’d hate to see you leave x
edit: if it’s any help, i turned my filter to safe and most of yours are blacked out. i clicked through to the rachel set and this one wasn’t – http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrismaverick/1127710485/in/set-721...
i’m pretty sure you wouldn’t have missed it, so hopefully it’ll help with the glitch proving! (the one’s that dave flagged up, interestingly, fall outside my safe search. time delay maybe?)
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Seen on your photo stream. (?)
It appears the restrictions have been relaxed. I am glad to see that. Creative outlets are important. I know what it is like to be muzzled, and really understand the relief one feels when arbitrary controls are removed. You’ve done a lot to address their concerrns, and deserve more of an explaination than you have received. Let’s hope this does not happen again.
As a note, your 365mav feed hit my livejournal at 4am with this post. So it is RSS feeding now.
I agree that it seems clear that the moderation thing is automated. My personal guess is when you get fast responses that say, "You have images that need to be moderated in a more restrictive manner," the person replying clicked on a button to scan your pictures, and the script came back with that response. No person looking at your account at all. You’d have to know what it’s coded to look at to know what is inappropriate.
Good luck.
EXPLORE Alert: According to Scout #227 this morning. Dang, you think if they’re paying enough attention to make this Explored, then they should be able to fix this!
Argh! This drives me insane. I’m so sorry this is happening to you Mav, and totally understand being upset about it!
The responses make me want to scream because they are so obviously just automated messages and nobody is actually LOOKING at your photos or READING what you are writing!
I will gladly write to Flickr using your case number if you want. I think we all should start writing on your behalf. They have to change this. This is so clearly a mistake!!
Hang in there…we will get this fixed.
Wait…if this is in Explore, then your account must not be moderate anymore, right?
I thought ‘moderate’ images can’t get into Explore. Potentially good news…?
Yep, you’re definitely no longer restricted. I just logged out and was able to get to your stream (last night it just told me I wasn’t allowed to see your stuff if I wasn’t logged in).
I can’t wait to hear what they ended up saying…hopefully all is right with the world (well, Flickr anyway) again!
WOW!
I so have to come back and read these comments…I know I’m missing a LOT on this one…but I LOVE the photo!!!
@M Styborski: I have no problem with them setting policy. I don’t even have a problem with them using software to enforce it. I even consider it different from the German issue because even though I don’t politically agree with it, it was a legal issue they were dealing with, and at least their response was well defined. My main problem is with the inability of flickr to explain that policy, and the generally poor attitude of the guy I had to deal with. Obviously right now, I am unlocked and I am staying for now. When my pro account runs out in December, or if this happens again, I’ll have some decision to make.
@KatColorado: it does not appear that there were any bugs. Things are working as they are "supposed to." However, the manner they have things set up right now is ridiculous.
@metró: Dave and I continued testing things last night. It appears if you comment or fave a picture you are immune to moderation for it. Which I suppose makes sense, but its unintuitive. What if I comment on something to say "please do not post things like this to my group, it is offensive?"
@DeHoll: it has been, but not really to my satisfaction. Basically they wouldn’t tell me what the offending photo was, so I had to keep guessing until I got whatever the mystery offending photo(s) are. At this point I had to mark some 140 photos.
@Princess Diablo: yeah, its fixed now.
@bk7j: oh, I’m quite certain there was a person there, but I’m also quite certain from his responses that he was just running a script and not really paying attention to what I was saing (or actively ignoring it) and just trying to follow the script.
@lrayholly: well, explore is automatic as well, so when they unblocked me the photo got picked up. Still, the whole thing bothers me.
@sadandbeautiful (Sarah): i appreciate it, but for now, things are working. I’m just irritated that I have no way of knowing which photos of mine I can unblock now. The whole thing is asinine.
@d.rex: yeah, they wrote me after i went to bed saying: Looks like you finally got it.
I’ve marked your account as "safe". Please continue to moderate your photostream in a similar way in the future.which also makes it clear to me that they weren’t really paying attention to what I was reading and were just running a script and the guy didn’t even know what photo the script was choking on.
@pi c’s:
glad you like the pic. Thanks. I just wish it was under reasonable circumstances.
good luck. i feel you.
beautiful picture, too. completely fits my own mood right now.
cheers.
@brian.crissie: i got it settled. Thank you.
thanks for your comment and I could have written what you wrote on this image myself. Especially the last three paragraphs.
@Mike Wood Photography: thank you. I’m just sorry you had to go through it too.
just amazing