I’m sure everyone only pay attention to me on the internet because you want me to point out all the really important hard hitting news stories, right? So when I saw this one I felt like it was my duty to point it out. Apparently, Malia Obama has worn a T-shirt with the logo of rap group Pro Era. Pro Era was excited about that so they posted the picture to their Instagram page. Because, you know, the daughter of the president supports your band, and you’re like FUCK YEAH!
Crazy, huh? I mean it must be, because there are actual news outlets who have decided this was important enough to report on it.
Ok, so I get that Gawker pointed it out. Reporting on non-news about pseudo-celebrities is pretty much Gawker’s jam. So sure… I mean, they’re Gawker. But FoxNews? Seriously? I mean, I get that you hate her dad. Fine, but what exactly is the story? Teen girl likes to wear t-shirts? Teen girl likes rap music? Teen girl likes to take selfies? No, they went with “White house investigating how Malia Obama pic got leaked.” Their logic is that Michelle Obama runs a tight ship and monitors her daughters’ internet access and social media.
So, to everyone reading this who has teenaged children, let me clue you in on something. If you’re in your 50s and you have a 16-year-old daughter and she’s not smart enough to post pictures online behind your back, then you’re raising a fucking moron. Actually worse. Because fucking morons know how to do shit behind their parents backs.
Look, here’s the deal… I don’t care if you like Barack Obama or hate him. If you haven’t picked up on it by now, I’m pretty damn liberal. That said, he isn’t my favorite person either. But let’s keep something in mind, he’s the president of the United States. He has a Harvard law degree. He’s probably not an idiot. For the record, I never thought George W. Bush was an idiot either. He’s also married to another lawyer. Chances are their daughter is pretty smart.
But I don’t even know that she’s taking pictures behind her parents back. Gawker also reports that the picture was sent to Pro Era by one of Malia’s friends. Because, you know, that’s kinda what people do with the Internet.
Which leads me to the second issue. The scandalous nature of the picture itself. I’ve been looking around the blogosphere and people are reporting that a selfie was “leaked” or that maybe her phone was hacked. It’s not a nude. It’s not her sexting. She’s not doing drugs. it’s a girl in a T-shirt, standing there. But you know who had a problem with it? The Tea Party News Network. And what is their problem? It’s that this is evidence that the Obama’s hate cops. Yep. That happened. Because clearly rap music means you hate police.
The best part is that TPNN even excerpted a couple random Pro Era songs as “evidence.” In particular they wrote about Come Come, which they called “a song about slaughtering pigs, i.e. cops.” They were even nice enough to bold the lyrics that prove how evil the Obamas are:
Where syringes were pressed: dirty kitchen
I’m spillin’ all my kids on her dress, Started living what I’m thinking
Decider, we next stop
Stop and then frisk
Slaughtering pigs anybody can get it
Shooting stars, now make a wish
Rocking skins like the skins we rocking
Powerpuff smoking on that blossom
We’re running the game and this shit is exhausting
But I don’t give a fuck cause this shit is awesome
4-7
Of course that’s not what they’re talking about at all. Unless of course you know something I don’t about random rap stars stopping and frisking cops… you know… in the line before… which they also helpfully bolded. The song is actually about the power of Pro Era’s lyrics. Which, you know, maybe is a little egotistical, but whatever. So really, the problem is that the Tea Party doesn’t get metaphor. And therefore I now assume that the real purpose of the entire movement is that they want us dump all of our tea into Boston Harbor. That or sit down for crumpets and Earl Grey.
Too bad I prefer Darjeeling.
Wow, I’d never have picked you for a Darjeeling guy. Ever try “Constant Comment”? Other than the fact that the name is startlingly apt, it has a great citrus hit.
Seriously, though, I’m right there with you on this one. Had it up to HERE *on tiptoes* with the tea party BS
I JUST posted something related to this. People are awful.
Nice bait and switch. First you mention a conservative news outlet, you know an actual news outlet. Then you equate a lunatic fringe blog to a political ideology. Yes the whole thing is silly, but so is trying to make some half-assed connection between two disparate entities. It would have more credence if you had used some conservative nutbag like Alex Jones. At least then you would not have been mixing political metaphors…
The real tea party was start by Ron Paul movement, this current thing was hijacked by republicans to get votes, its not a conservative movement just a bunch of phonies.
They probably learned how dangerous metaphors are when they were told a couple years ago that Sarah Palin’s crosshairs election map got Gabrielle Giffords shot. We know how this game works. My metaphors are just metaphors. Your metaphors are dangerous and get people killed. It’s human nature for us all to be at least a little hypocritical. The Tea Party is constantly told every pro-gun thing they do and say gets people killed. They’re expected to look at a rap culture that’s filled with rap about killing people and killing cops and be high-minded and aloof and see no connection?
I also posted about this this morning too. I get that the White House should want to figure out how the pic got from “not meant for the internet” to Instagram because they want to be able to keep tabs on avenues for potential security risks and so forth. I don’t see the validity of this becoming a bullet point in an argument about policy or ammunition for character assassination for POTUS, family, and administration.
It isn’t. Just more “media” silliness IMO
Megan: I have had Constant Comment. It’s ok. I drink it on occasion. I just prefer Darjeeling.
Mikey: Yep… people suck. Pretty much across the board.
Vic: It’s not a bait and switch. I say right in the article title that I’m going to be making fun of the Tea Party. I’m not “making” a connection between FoxNews and the Tea Party, any more than I am between either of them and Gawker. The only connection I care about in this case is that those are the three entities that commented on the story. I give Gawker a pass because that’s what they’re there for. Which is why Gawker is stupid. As far as I can tell Alex Jones hasn’t commented on this story and so it would be unfair to make fun of him for it. I actually saw the TPNN story first because at least a couple people in my FB stream had linked to it. Then I went searching for other links to it. There are 3 major 24 hour news networks in this country. CNN and MSNBC hadn’t posted about it… at least not as of 5am when I wrote this. Fox had.
Robert: I’d agree with that to an extent, but that’s not relevant really. Because they DID comment. Or to be more fair, TPNN did, and I made that clear. The thing with political parties is that purpose shifts. The Democrats were founded to oppose agrarianism. The Republicans were founded to oppose slavery. Both have kind of moved on in the last 200 years, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t “real.”
John: Actually, I also think it was stupid to blame Sarah Palin for the shooting of Gabbi Giffords, and I agree with you she was using a metaphor when she said to “put the politicians in our crosshairs.” I think she had every right to do so. The difference is what Mikey indirectly alluded to in his version of the post. Sarah Palin (and Barack Obama, and lots of other people) is a politician – a grown woman making a specific political statement. She was making a direct point, one which I think she had every right to make. Malia Obama is a 16 year old girl who wasn’t “saying” anything. She was wearing a T-shirt. We don’t know that she likes the song “Come Come” or that she’s even heard it. We don’t know that she interprets it the way I do or the way TPNN did. To assume she is specifically endorsing killing of cops, and transitively that her father does makes as much sense as assuming my mother endorses the slaughtering of innocent jedi children just because I happened to be wearing a Darth Vader T-shirt yesterday.
As for how they interpreted it because of “rap culture” that’s ridiculous. There’s no way to interpret rap culture as a whole because there are too many rappers. I also feel that it’s unfair to interpret all Muslims or Christians or Jews based on actions of specific ones and those three things HAVE a specific ideology that underlies them. Rap (or more accurately hip hop) does not. I’m not really a Pro Era fan. But I am a fan of Ice T, and “Cop Killer” was a great song. But I can’t make the assumption that all 7.8 million viewers of SVU this week are looking to “shoot a pig in their motherfuckin’ face” which is an actual lyric Ice T wrote.
I also don’t necessarily believe that every Will Smith fan knows how to get jiggy with it.
Megan: I have had Constant Comment. It’s ok. I drink it on occasion. I just prefer Darjeeling.
Mikey: Yep… people suck. Pretty much across the board.
Vic: It’s not a bait and switch. I say right in the article title that I’m going to be making fun of the Tea Party. I’m not “making” a connection between FoxNews and the Tea Party, any more than I am between either of them and Gawker. The only connection I care about in this case is that those are the three entities that commented on the story. I give Gawker a pass because that’s what they’re there for. Which is why Gawker is stupid. As far as I can tell Alex Jones hasn’t commented on this story and so it would be unfair to make fun of him for it. I actually saw the TPNN story first because at least a couple people in my FB stream had linked to it. Then I went searching for other links to it. There are 3 major 24 hour news networks in this country. CNN and MSNBC hadn’t posted about it… at least not as of 5am when I wrote this. Fox had.
Robert: I’d agree with that to an extent, but that’s not relevant really. Because they DID comment. Or to be more fair, TPNN did, and I made that clear. The thing with political parties is that purpose shifts. The Democrats were founded to oppose agrarianism. The Republicans were founded to oppose slavery. Both have kind of moved on in the last 200 years, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t “real.”
John: Actually, I also think it was stupid to blame Sarah Palin for the shooting of Gabbi Giffords, and I agree with you she was using a metaphor when she said to “put the politicians in our crosshairs.” I think she had every right to do so. The difference is what Mikey indirectly alluded to in his version of the post. Sarah Palin (and Barack Obama, and lots of other people) is a politician – a grown woman making a specific political statement. She was making a direct point, one which I think she had every right to make. Malia Obama is a 16 year old girl who wasn’t “saying” anything. She was wearing a T-shirt. We don’t know that she likes the song “Come Come” or that she’s even heard it. We don’t know that she interprets it the way I do or the way TPNN did. To assume she is specifically endorsing killing of cops, and transitively that her father does makes as much sense as assuming my mother endorses the slaughtering of innocent jedi children just because I happened to be wearing a Darth Vader T-shirt yesterday.
As for how they interpreted it because of “rap culture” that’s ridiculous. There’s no way to interpret rap culture as a whole because there are too many rappers. I also feel that it’s unfair to interpret all Muslims or Christians or Jews based on actions of specific ones and those three things HAVE a specific ideology that underlies them. Rap (or more accurately hip hop) does not. I’m not really a Pro Era fan. But I am a fan of Ice T, and “Cop Killer” was a great song. But I can’t make the assumption that all 7.8 million viewers of SVU this week are looking to “shoot a pig in their motherfuckin’ face” which is an actual lyric Ice T wrote.
I also don’t necessarily believe that every Will Smith fan knows how to get jiggy with it.
My constant comment when given that tea is ‘what the hell is this crap?’
I think it relevant to GOP. I think u are correct that the purpose shifts which is why GOP wont win another Pres election til they decide on what being conservative is. You got the crazy Jones/Paul republicans like me and then the fake conservative republicans like Boehner/Mccain. As least the Dems are flaming authoritarians and dont pretend, gotta give it to them
Mark: The Whitehouse will (and even should) investigate it because the Whitehouse investigates anything that happens inside of its walls. Living in that house means agreeing to live under a microscope and that’s fine.That’s the deal you accept when you take office, be you Obama, Bush(s), Clinton, Reagan, Carter, or whoever, and that’s the deal you accept for your minor children as well. Malia has to deal with it and so did Barbara, Jenna and Chelsea.
That said, she’s still a 16 year old girl. And that was my main point. 16 year olds are going to do shit behind their parents back. Hell, I bet she’s done stuff way bigger than this. I mean, I don’t know that she’s drank alcohol, smoked cigarettes or pot or had sex… but these things certainly wouldn’t be surprising. in this case, it looks like the “leak” is probably that she sent a selfie to a friend and the friend sent it to the band that made her shirt. Because that’s what teenagers do. It’d be more of a scandal if she didn’t take selfies. I’d be like “what the fuck is up with the presidents kid? why is she not taking pictures of herself?”
Right. The only real concern that should be here, I believe, is White House security figuring out how it went from private to public so they can monitor that avenue. Everything else seems superfluous to me.
Robert: I don’t know that “relevant” to the GOP is the right word. The republicans are having their base principles rewritten out from under them by a particularly strong subset. It’s happened before, it will happen again. That’s what I was getting at. That’s why their main purpose isn’t “abolish slavery” anymore.
That’s the danger of a two-party political system. Since Americans are convinced that dual-partisanism is the only way to go, if you have a particular cause that you want to base your political ideology on, you have to pick one of the two groups and shoe horn it in. That’s a long and hard process and reversing it is a long and hard process too.
For my money, the correct solution is to abandon the two party system. There’s no reason that the Tea Party and the Republicans can’t exist separately, along with half a dozen other conservative sub groups. The same could be done with the democrats for that matter.
But our particular voting system sort of discourages it. One vote to a person combined with an electoral college system which is predominantly winner take all and US culture’s basic love of clearly labeled buckets means that political theater has to be simplified into a coin flip in order to maximize electability.
In effect, that turns it into a pro-wresting match. The fans just can’t decide which side is the faces and which side is the heels.
The Charlie Hebdo killers were rappers, btw. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/charlie-hebdo-paris-shooting-video-4940394
John: you’re kidding right? Your evidence is that a guy who killed someone sang a song once?!?!? You get that Charlie Manson wanted to be a rock and roll star, right?
I just posted a fact. I drew no conclusion. Charles Manson is an example of someone who WAS influenced by music to kill people. (Or at least allegedly was) If he can be…surely others can be. What the hypocrisy of both sides (that i discussed earlier) suggests is that we’re all really not sure to what extent metaphors and lyrics and the like can influence people, and that at least sometimes we all think violent thoughts/ideas can beget violent actions.
I just posted a fact. I drew no conclusion. Charles Manson is an example of someone who WAS influenced by music to kill people. (Or at least allegedly was) If he can be…surely others can be. What the hypocrisy of both sides (that i discussed earlier) suggests is that we’re all really not sure to what extent metaphors and lyrics and the like can influence people, and that at least sometimes we all think violent thoughts/ideas can beget violent actions, even if we are hypocritically inconsistent.
John: it’s an irrelevant fact. Jeffrey Dahmer was also in the army. Water has a chemical formula of H2O. Thomas Crapper invented the flushable toilet. in 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue. These are also facts. The only reason for you to mention one in this context is if you are trying to draw a conclusion. Or do you just like posting irrelevant information for no apparent reason?
I did not draw a SPECIFIC conclusion. But it is not hard to imagine that people that sing angry rap lyrics about killing cops and killing other people might be more inclined to do so than those that don’t think those types of thoughts day after day. When a car of people singing along to “Cop Killer” is stopped by police, is it your assertion that that has no impact whatsoever on their state of mind?
John: Ok… then do so… are you trying to say something relevant or are you just defending your right to increase my comment count by adding noise to the signal?
He guys, did you know War & Peace was written by Tolstoy? How about this, the square root of a negative number is irrational!
War & Peace is a thousand page book that managed to get by with no metaphors about killing cops. Imagine that.
Personally, as a Body Count fan, I like the new Body Count single “Talk Shit, Get Shot”. But, admittedly, that’s exactly what the killers in France did to the Charlie Bebdo guys.
John: Uhhh…. have you read War & Peace? It’s about the war between France and Russia…. its literally about killing soldiers…
Is there a metaphor about killing cops? No. Now you’re giving me noise.
Rap lyrics are fantasy. But they are a fantasy that glorifies killing people. As long as it’s fantasy it’s fine. But if you actually ever began to live out that fantasy – well, you’d be a murderer.
Not to jump in the fray, but lots of things in American culture promote violence, not simply rap music or world wrestling. I do blame Rowdy Roddy Piper for my love of men in kilts, though.
That’s understood Kash. But there is a major problem with exactly THIS type of violence in several major American cities. If people were wrestling other people in the streets Rowdy Roddy Piper style maybe the fantasy violence of the WWF would be of relevance. But they’re not. But inner city violence is real. That “Pro Era” song even lyrically bridges fantasy & reality: “Started living what I’m thinking”. That’s a problem. Because he’s thinking about killing cops. (and rivals). (And manufacturing meth, and doing whatnot to “blind bitch” women). It’s best for us all if no one “start(s) living it”.
I’ll have to agree with Kash on the topic of Rowdy Roddy Piper. I always liked him more than Hogan and his attempts at movies were better too.
Since it was brought up, Constant Comment (with a cinnamon stick and just a touch of honey) is my preferred tea. Clearly I’m focused on the important part of this conversation :).
I also don’t get your comment “You get that Charlie Manson wanted to be a rock and roll star, right?”. And these rappers don’t want to be rap stars? Failed rap star -> radicalized terorrist is not an uncommon career trajectory these days. Have you looked at who has been joining up with ISIS?
Oh, I’ve been looking for the ISIS Member Survey! Do you have a link, John? Google is no help.
I’m more curious about the tendency of failed rappers to evolve into murderers.
I’m more curious about the tendency of failed rappers to evolve into “radicalized terrorists”.
John: Yes… i was giving noise. That was point. I tossed in War & Peace because it was irrelevant. Just like your “fact” about how “rappers killed the Charlie reporters.” The Charlie reporters were not killed by Malia Obama or any member of Pro Era, so it’s irrelevant.
You could just as easily have pointed out that 100% of Charlie Hedo murders have been committed by brunettes.
As for your other comments, you’re just making shit up. Poorly. There actually are TONS of people who claim that pro-wrestling encourages violence. It was directly claimed as a cause of the Lionel Tate case and the Columbine murders. And for the record, that turned out to be bullshit in both cases.
As Laura says, please provide evidence for your claim that failed rappers commonly become terrorists. Where do you get that at all?
“Hey guys, I have it on good authority that ISIS was formed by Snow and the Baha Men!”
I can say crazy shit too.
The FBI has documented a phenomenon known as “Jihad Cool” that includes terrorist recruiting through rap music, which is unsurprising given the overlapping themes.
Yes… because rap is cool. People recruit with cool stuff. You know who else recruits with rap? Auto insurance companies. Your understanding of causality is extremely flawed.
Pretty sure the auto insurance industry isn’t using gangsta rap.
They recruit through social media, too. Does that make every blogger a suspect?
It’s also weird that The Beach Boys recorded a song that Manson wrote.
John: yes they do… for instance. Right here:
John: yes they do… for instance. Right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u2sxqHlUdg
You know, I had no idea they blamed certain events on pro-wrestling. I was just citing what I thought was an absurd example of violence and then devolving to humour. I learn something new every day.
LOL at the Aflac. There were no references to Gangsterism, killing people, “bitches”, drugs or any element of Gangsta culture in that Aflac commercial. Try again. If “buying health insurance” were gangsta, I’ve never heard any gangsta rappers rap about it.
Shit, I wonder if the “radicalized terrorists” are recruiting through video games.
I have a question for the people who think the lyrics of rap are relevant.
Do you listen to the Rolling Stones? (I do! I’m not criticizing. I’m just curious.)
I already said I listen to Body Count, who’s most famous song is about killing cops and a new single this year that’s one long song about shooting anyone who “talks shit”, with 100 different ways of saying “blow them away”, whose chorus is a lament that “mother f-ers aint’ got shot in a while”, and whose video consists of one drive-by shooting after another. What would it matter if I listen to the Rolling Stones? What’s the argument here, words don’t ever influence people? Because much of history is proof of the opposite.
The reason I ask is this: if liking a band is the same as endorsing all the lyrics of that band, then if you like the Rolling Stones, you endorse a romantic view of slavery and rape.
Criticism of rap music is *almost always* based in racist views of the appropriateness of violent lyrics.
I’d be real fuckin’ hesitant to ascribe to “rap culture” anything beyond “at this point the majority of people under 40 who have access to modern recorded music like rap to some degree”
I *like* rap music. I liked the Ghetto Boys when they were the *shockingly* violent group acting like the next Scarface. They’re probably tame by today’s standards. But I also don’t listen exclusively to rap, and I don’t act like Scarface. More than a few rap fans are acting out these lyrics. That’s a problem.
You keep asserting that rap fans are acting out these lyrics.
If you could please provide a source, that’d be awesome.
So, does this mean we need to put you on some sort of watch list?
You probably should! That’s the other side to this. If white kids were writing these types of lyrics, they’d be in counseling with a psychologist.
Nah, John doesn’t need to be on a watch list. It’s all right ‘cuz it’s all white.
By the same logic, all Morissey fans should be moody and bemoaning their lives…oh wait.
Are you sure there’s a causal link between violent lyrics and real life violence?
“If white kids were writing these types of lyrics, they’d be in counseling with a psychologist.” I am pretty sure people mostly just throw money and sex at Mick Jagger
Michael Brown acted out his lyrics. He rapped about bullying people and stealing Swisher sweets – and lo and behold, he’s on video knocking over a store clerk and taking Swisher sweets. The Tsarnev kid posted rap lyrics to his Facebook account before the bombing and during the manhunt that “justified” (in his mind) his actions. These Bebdo terrorists are rap fans. I’m sure if I cared to chronicle connections between violence and rap it wouldn’t be hard.
Timothy McVeigh liked to listen to acid rock real loud.
Is there an epidemic of violence in Oklahoma City among acid rock listeners?
Harris and Klebold really liked KMFDM
Is there an epidemic of violence worldwide among rap listeners?
I think causation and correlation have sadly left for greener pastures at this point.
Why’d you say “worldwide”?
John: the problem is, you, like the TPNN can’t actually read. Pro Era, in that particular song ISN’T saying to go out and make meth or kill anyone. They actually said the opposite. They said they grew up somewhere where people were making meth and the cops were killing them and yet their music is still awesome. Which, is exactly what I said in my article.
It’s not their fault that the square old white people don’t understand the lyrics they’re writing.
That said, even if that’s what they were saying, it doesn’t matter. Media doesn’t actually cause violence. There are about a billion psychology and cultural studies reports that prove this. Ice T wrote a song that is LITERALLY about killing police. And I like that song. Ted Nugent has several songs calling for violence, and though I’m not a fan, I’m ok with that too.
As Laura pointed out. You want to assert that rap is causing these problems because you’re looking for something to blame. But you have no actual science to back this up that isn’t steeped in racial prejudice.
John asserts that gangsta rap lyrics cause violence. I assert that violence causes gangsta rap lyrics.
Well, your examples were worldwide, John. That’s why I asked about worldwide.
Jameel is exactly right. That’s the base premise along which cultural studies is based.
You are claiming that “slaughtering pigs anybody can get it” is a statement calling for transcending violence through music? LOL! “I” can’t read? That’s a pretty difficult case you’re making. Do you really believe that? If we can’t agree that “slaughtering pigs anybody can get it” is not a peace-loving statement, than I’m afraid we’re at a complete impasse here.
You are claiming that “slaughtering pigs anybody can get it” is a statement calling for transcending violence through music? LOL! “I” can’t read? That’s a pretty difficult case you’re making. Do you really believe that? If we can’t agree that “slaughtering pigs anybody can get it” is not a peace-loving statement, than I’m afraid we’re at a complete impasse here. I’m pretty sure if you walk into a police station and say “I’m slaughtering pigs anybody can get it” they may not immediately see the peace-and-goodwill-to-all-men message that you apparently see in it.
http://gamerant.com/video-games-violent-behavior-study/
If violent video games don’t increase violence, and violent movies don’t increase violence, I’m not sure that violent lyrics are likely to increase violence.
As for the AFLAC commercial. Of course it’s relevant. Define gangster rap. I don’t see why it doesn’t count and Pro Era and the Charlie Hebdo killer guy do. Pro Era didn’t call for violence. And I’m going to go out on a limb and guess you don’t speak enough French to have any idea what the killer guy was saying. I certainly don’t.
And yes actually… what that lyric actually says is that slaughtering pigs, that is the cops who kill people, understand what Pro Era is trying to say. You know… because like… I can read.
Tracy: Exactly. People look for comfort in blaming media (music, movies, tv, video games, poetry, paintings, cave drawings) because people like to have a simple to understand reason for something. It’s a lot easier to say “this thing that I don’t care about but a lot of people who aren’t like me do causes evil shit to happen. So if we just get rid of it, the world will be a better place and hey, it doesn’t affect me, so lets do that!” than it is to say “hey, the world is a crazy fucking place and shitty things happen sometimes.”
TIME TO BREAK OUT MY MATH SKILLZ AGAIN.
There are approximately 3000000000 humans in the world between the ages of 10 and 40 (source: US Census International Data Base
World Population by Age and Sex, 2014). That’s approximately the group of people who are likely to listen to rap, if they also have access to modern recorded music (not all of them do).
Worldwide rates of intentional homicide (let’s use this as a proxy for “violence”), as estimated by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime in 2010, are about 6.9 per 100,000. That’s for all ages groups, and we know that that demographically, the age group covered by 10-40 contains the most violent ages, so you’d expect that age group to be at least SOME more violent, but how much? I’d have to go find numbers on that.
So, to sum up, John, here are the numbers we need to figure out if rap fans are more violent than other people:
1. More accurate estimate of number of rap listeners than “everyone on the planet between 10-40”
2. Demographics of said group, as well as demographic data on non-listeners.
3. Worldwide homicide or violent crime data, broken down by demographic groups.
Then you can use the above info to show the violence level of rap listeners, in comparison to demographically-similar non-listeners.
I have searched and am unable to find such a source. If you have one, please let me know. You’ve repeatedly failed to do so, so I don’t hold out much hope.
I don’t really want to wade into the whole thing. But I do think that Mav is wrong about the lyrics. Specifically, having listened to it, I don’t think that the transcription is correct. The transcription says:
“Decider, we next stop
Stop and then frisk
Slaughtering pigs anybody can get it”
I’m pretty sure the song says:
“Decider, we next
Stop stopping and frisk
Slaughtering pigs, anybody can get it”
Which I read as a reminder to the cops that stop and frisk is upsetting people and that cops can be shot, too. “Anybody can get it” meaning that anyone can be shot. I don’t think it’s a statement that even slaughtering pigs are into Pro Era. That said, I don’t, personally find it at all offensive because I take it as a combination of a legitimate grievance with some hyperbole.
I don’t really want to wade into the whole thing. But I do think that Mav is wrong about the lyrics. Specifically, having listened to it, I don’t think that the transcription is correct. The transcription says:
“Decider, we next stop
Stop and then frisk
Slaughtering pigs anybody can get it”
I’m pretty sure the song says:
“Decider, we next
Stop stopping and frisk
Slaughtering pigs, anybody can get it”
Which I read as a reminder to the cops that stop and frisk is upsetting people and that cops can be shot, too. “Anybody can get it” meaning that anyone can be shot. I don’t think it’s a statement that even slaughtering pigs are into Pro Era. That said, I don’t, personally find it at all offensive because I take it as a combination of a legitimate grievance with some hyperbole. And I would be flabbergasted if anyone would hear that and it would change their mind about whether or not they should kill police officers.
Statistics are never as much fun as soapboxes and grandstands…
They are not, but they’re the most fun way to kick anecdata in the shins
No offense intended Laura, but I’m just going to ignore you because discussions of data require collection of data, analysis of data, etc and for those not actively involved in those pursuits, it’s a distraction. I’m certainly not going to opine on any data set that starts with “the total population of the world”. For what it’s worth, Feminists have long maintained that misogyny in rap and other media can affect people’s behaviors and perceptions, and I’m sure you can find some data to that effect. It seems unlikely that misognyist attitudes would carry over from musical lyrics and not other attitudes.
Wait, Laura, were you listening to songs about soccer players?
John, I’m unsurprised that you don’t like data and consider it a “distraction”.
John: wait, is your answer to her “look, here’s scientifically why you are wrong.” seriously “I’m ignoring you because I don’t want to do math, so lets just assume I’m right?”
Data has its place. But rarely in Facebook discussion.
That’s right! Facebook is for John’s un-thought-out bull and NOTHING ELSE
wow…. so your answer really is “I’m ignoring you because I don’t want to do math, so lets just assume I’m right.”
Down with data, up with kilts!
Not quite. I’m ignoring her because data isn’t something that you just grab at any data you can find and cry “Aha!”. You actually have to formulate hypotheses, structure experiments so they actually are testing those hypotheses, conduct those experiments, evaluate the methods, run math on the data, etc.
See, I’d postulate that John’s answer of “this is Facebook so I don’t need facts, my personally held racist beliefs are far more important than reality” is far more indicative of a problem that hurts this country, and in fact all of human civilization than the innocuous choice of T-shrit that a high school junior, who is only famous because of who her father is, happens to wear.
John understands neither statistics nor science, film at 11
John, by your arguments, aren’t you simply grabbing “data”(lyrics and inner city violence) and getting the same Aha moment?
This is wonderful.
No, Laura, you are right. Let’s take the total world population, do a backhand calculation about rap fans, pretend we have some relevant data even though we did no data collection and formed no hypothesis, and voila ! That’s science! It’s magic! Look – I see rainbows!
John: right… and she did that. So did I. You didn’t. You said “yes, but we all know that lots of failed rappers go on to become terrorists because rap songs say that killing cops is good. And I know this because I’m a 40 year old white guy who used to listen to Ghetto Boys”
It’s the Geto Boys, these days.
By the way, if we’re counting up rap fans influence on Islamic politics, you really shouldn’t leave out El Général’s Rais LeBled which was one of the anthems of the Tunsian revolution during Arab Spring and was reportedly sung by protestors in Tahrir Square.
Back of the envelope calculation is great for figuring out if a guess is in the right ballpark, which is what Laura did. Working as intended.
But she didn’t do a calculation. A calculation generates a result.
yes she did… did you pass long division?
I did generate a result. My result was: here is the info we need to generate a reasonable result to discuss.
I miss the old days, when songs never had violent lyrics, there were no wars, no protests, and everyone lived in peace and harmony.
Which leads to experimentation to see if the hypothesis is correct. Scientific process at work in all its glory.
You could also argue that my result is: there are no studies I can locate that perform a reasonable statistical analysis on whether or not rap music produces an increase in violent behavior.
ION, John also doesn’t know how approximation works.
At any rate. I’ve learned that denigrating cops and saying you intend to slaughter them is a peace-loving sentiment, that data analysis is best done “on-the-fly” with pure guesswork by English majors, and that words never ever led to anything bad, Mein Kampf included.
At any rate. I’ve learned that denigrating cops and saying you intend to slaughter them is a peace-loving sentiment, that data analysis is best done “on-the-fly” with pure guesswork by English majors, and that words never ever led to anything bad, (Mein Kampf was presumably a blip).
Jeff: yep… 2,000,000 BC was such a good year.
I think I’ve found John’s only skill, you guys. I think it’s constructing strawmen.
You’re right. It wasn’t a calculation. It was a thought exercise. As the person with the extraordinary claim, it’s up to you to provide evidence. Laura did a good bit of the work for you. All you have to do is find numbers and plug them in. Heck, you should thank her.
Also, I’m disappointed in myself, because I didn’t manage to get John to call me a racist, which was actually my goal.
John: serious question… and this isn’t a trick, though I’m sure it might turn into an interesting conversation given what I expect your answer is….
But out of curiousity… What exactly is it that you think English majors do?
Mav, we sit around at the Cage and smoke and talk about Booker prize winners and the patriarchy.
Thank her for what? Providing the worst methodology for a data exercise ever? I already “clued” you idjits in on the fact that have been studies of misogyny in rap lyrics – and even an idiot can google those and see much saner methodologies that don’t start with “the population of the world”. You guys are persistent, but too bone-headed. Mav can’t admit that the lyric really isn’t a good-will to all men lyric, and Laura hides behind calls for empiricism -an odd refuge for an English major.
This thread is amazing.
Laura, be fair. He’s also doing a bang up job of defeating those strawmen.
Oh, yes, must be fair.
And I’m not putting down English majors at all. I have utmost respect for them. But I think the “data” angle is the ultimate dodge. English majors are taught to argue logically. So you should be providing fierce logical arguments. Not hiding behind empiricism.
And, apparently, hating on English majors.
I HAVE THE BEST TIMING.
Jameel: actually… I kinda think the straw men are winning this one.
John: actually you kinda did. But that wasn’t even my point. i knew you weren’t trying to and I was letting it slide.
Serious question. What is it that you think English majors do?
The English classes I took taught Argument and Logic. (Well, I also took some Creative Writing classes).
How do you lose to a strawman? That takes… talent? No. What’s the opposite of talent?
That’s a general studies class TAUGHT by the english department. It’s like saying Math majors do algebra.
I mean, literally as a discipline. What do you think it is that I study?
Do English classes teach Study Design? Statistics? Philosophy of Science? Empirical Research Methods? It is my understanding that they don’t.
ok… I’ll give you one more chance. Don’t answer with a question. Don’t try to do a gotcha… It’s really not a trick. If you have no idea, you can just say that. like as simple as possible:
What do you think English majors study?
I would think they study Literature, Textual Analysis, some sociological analysis, some Linguistic Analysis.
The use of “English majors” as a means to discredit those who disagree with you is classic argumentum ad hominem.
ok… so what does that mean to you?
To me, it means, I expect you to be able to engage in a rationalist argument. (as opposed to Laura who always cries “empiricism”)
John, “To me, it means, I expect a rationalist argument from you, not an empirical one.” is one of the most nonsensical things I’ve ever read.
Well, it’s like if you wrote a paper on racism in Western Literature. Do your professors require hard data and statistical analysis for your conclusions? Or just logical argument and example-driven analysis? Do arguments in English require extensive data collection, sample sizes to be disclosed and p-values, etc?
Well, it’s like if you wrote a paper on racism in Western Literature. Do your professors require hard data and statistical analysis for your conclusions? Or just logica/rationalist argument and example-driven analysis? Do arguments in English require extensive data collection, sample sizes to be disclosed and p-values, etc?
Ryan Assad
ok… well first of all, it’s pretty clear that you don’t actually know the difference between a rational argument and an empirical one. We use both rationalization and empircal evidence. For good reason. But that aside.
Lets just take your definition of an english major. Study of Literature through textual analysis with sociology and linguistics(I see that you edited to add that one).
You took ONE class in English. Intro to Argument. Which has nothing to do with any of that… and which I now teach. And you took it more than twenty years ago.
I on the other hand: 1) teach the only class you’ve ever taken and apparently am not so shitty at it that I’ve been fired and 2) have taken dozens of other classes that actually deal with textual, sociological and linguistic analysis of literature.
A rap song is a poem. A poem is literature. I’m going to just take these as basic axioms we can all agree on. If you disagree, feel free to say so, but I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt as a member of the language using public that you can see that a rap song is a poem.
I, (and to a lesser extent Laura, since she was also an English major) by your own definition am specifically trained in analyzing poems through their textual and linguistic strata and applying them to sociological constructs. It is literally what I do every day of my life. I do this through a variety of techniques, one of which, by the way is using statistics on the populations that it affects.
Now, taking that… explain to me how your method of analysis for a poem is better than mine?
and to answer your other question. I’m a phd student. My professors don’t require a damn thing. They trust that at this point I know the best analysis method to use for the question I am trying to answer. Sometimes that might be statistics. Sometimes it might be psychology.
Sometimes it might be a sleeper hold.
I’m not going to go down the road of arguing who is “better” at analyzing poems. I don’t think analyzing poems is like a batting average. And even if it were, you’d need…ahem, “data”. In a sense, you’re making an argument from authority here – which, if you teach Intro to Argument, you know is a fallacy. At any rate – the line in question “Slaughtering pigs anybody can get it” – is offensive. Your argument is that the context redeems that line, but I need to see the actual argument.
Keith: actually, true story: I did speak at a conference 2 years ago where I demonstrated the disparity between working class and upper class cultures throughout a 50 year period of the 20th century by putting a professor who was on the panel with me in a cross arm breaker… and it was relevant. But I didn’t use a sleeper hold… cuz that would have been silly.
Ummm…. no, an argument from authority is not a fallacy. Specifically, it 33% of the basis for Aristotilean rhetoric. We call it ethos. Are you sure you passed that class?
It is a logical fallacy. Because authority is not logic. It is authority. It is sometimes called the “appeal to authority”. In appealing to authority, you are no longer appealing to logic.
Although I’m not a supporter of John’s larger point, I do want to reiterate that as an authority on hip hop, I disagree with Mav’s interpretation of the lyrics in question for the reasons I laid out above. (In short, in case anyone doesn’t want to scroll, I think that the transcription is wrong, it should be “Stop stopping and frisk, slaughtering pigs, anyone can get it”, which I do read as a warning to cops that stop and frisk is upsetting people and that anyone can get shot, not as an assertion that even slaughtering pigs can get Pro Era.
It’s a logical fallacy when used incorrectly. It’s not a fallacy by default.
Well, by that reasoning, none of the “appeals” are logical fallacies unless “used incorrectly”. But that presumes there is a “correct use”. If the standard is logic, than any and every “appeal to authority” is an appeal to something other than logic.
Correct.
Oh, Keith, yes… I acknowledge the alternate interpretation. Which, if John were smart would be the tactic he’d take. Which is a far better argument than bringing of Charlie Hebdo and the other straws he’s grasping at.
That said, I already said (as did Jameel) that violence in literature is a reflection of culture. Which is why I have no problem with “Cop Killer”
Well, there is the old saying “Life imitates Art”.
Some of the things which get classed as “logical fallacies” are actually pieces of evidence which are highly imperfect. In general, these should not be used if better evidence or logical proof is available, but are not wrong to themselves. So “The professor says that 2+2=5” doesn’t win the argument since there’s something better available. But if we don’t have any better evidence, asking an authority for their best guess is often going to be better than asking a random person.
the standard is not logic. You just said that. There are lots of important things that go into cultural analysis. Laura tried to give you the logical one but you rejected it in favor of sociological and textual analysis, which it turns out you don’t know much about.
Laura didn’t provide squat. You have offered somewhat good arguments. Laura offered diversion (IMO).
Oh, an old saying? Those are always correct.
No, Laura gave you the raw numbers that you would need to make work to make your argument work. As Jameel said. you should thank her. Then you were intimidated so you rejected them out of hand and went for a non-statistical argument which you also couldn’t support. But its harder for Americans to see flaws in non numerical statements because we don’t starting learning them in kindergarten like we do with arithmetic, so you (incorrectly) thought you argument made sense.
Well, let’s break it down. Yes, art imitates life. But “art” is just people – artists. And people imitate. And you know what, “Life” is people to. It would be a strange dichotomy indeed if People only imitated when they were creating art, but not when they were consuming it.
And Jameel beat me to the response to your “Life imitates art axiom.”
I just got back from picking my kid up and this thread got evEn mOre aMazIng while I was gone. <3
Ok… so by that token we must immediately cancel Homeland. Because that encourages people to be terrorists too.
It’s an old school share&enjoy throwdown.
Keith agrees with my textual analysis of the song, but I’ve yet to see any of you tell him he’s wrong as to the text.
Keith agrees with my textual analysis of the song, but I’ve yet to see any of you tell him he’s wrong as to the text. Can we at least agree that the song contains a line that is derisive to police and alludes to killing them?
That’s because Keith is talking about textual analysis and song interpretation, and you’re talking about rap music making people violent, you illiterate twit.
I never said rap music made people violent. Rap music puts violent ideas into listener’s heads. There’s a subtle distinction. But you never even asked me what my position was in your glee to tell me I was stupid.
Someone quote him before he edits all his previous comments!
I’m not editing anything and resent the implication.
You literally just edited your previous comment.
Well, I’m not editing any previous comments. I reserve the right to edit comments in development.
“Michael Brown acted out his lyrics. He rapped about bullying people and stealing Swisher sweets – and lo and behold, he’s on video knocking over a store clerk and taking Swisher sweets. The Tsarnev kid posted rap lyrics to his Facebook account before the bombing and during the manhunt that “justified” (in his mind) his actions. These Bebdo terrorists are rap fans. I’m sure if I cared to chronicle connections between violence and rap it wouldn’t be hard.” You never said that, John?
That’s just ONE example I pulled from your previous comments, by the way.
I’m sure plenty of other people listened to Michael Brown’s lyrics and didn’t knock over a convenience store. I never said the lyrics “caused” him to do that. Some people act on ideas, some don’t. Mein Kampf didn’t CAUSE Germans to kill Jews, but it sure gave them the idea.
I sure hope no one is listening to John and getting like 300% more racist. I mean that’s the last thing we need, more racism against white people, amirite
Right now the only one I dislike is you Laura.
I think I’m getting more racist. Quick, what should I do?
That’s fine, dude. Mostly I just feel bad for your wife these days, because I like her and she’s too smart to be stuck with a racist misogynist who can’t do math.
quick jameel, listen to some rolling stones
LOL. Whatever illusions you need Laura.
I’m missing some vital context, aren’t I?
No, Jameel needs to listen to some good ol country music. A little bit of Hank Williams Sr.
“But it is not hard to imagine that people that sing angry rap lyrics about killing cops and killing other people might be more inclined to do so than those that don’t think those types of thoughts day after day. When a car of people singing along to “Cop Killer” is stopped by police, is it your assertion that that has no impact whatsoever on their state of mind?”
I am too. Laura has some hate on for me because I don’t buy into her nonsense.
You may not have explicitly said, “rap music made people violent”, but if people took that as what you said, it’s only because you said something incredibly close.
Fair enough, Jeff. At the same time, most people try to clarify someone’s position before attacking it.
I know, I know, I keep asking you to back up your claims and then doing stuff like figuring out what numbers you might need to do so. Very nonsense.
Most people try to clarify someone’s position before attacking them? You can’t know very many people, and you’re being way too generous with those you do know, including yourself.
His editing statements after people have replied doesn’t help.
What number do I need to back up the claim that the phrase in question is inciting language? 2? 7? How about 3.14? What number do I need to back up the claim that the Hebdo guys were rappers? They were.
ANECDOTES ARE DATA
WAR IS PEACE
Anecdotes ARE data. It’s called anecdotal data.
Just because some psycho watches a movie and gets the idea to shoot the President to impress Jodi Foster doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with Taxi Driver. Or with anyone who happens to like it, even if it isn’t all puppies and kittens frolicking in a meadow.
Uh oh, don’t get me started on Taxi Driver.
You know sociology uses statistical analysis, right?
Sometimes it does, not always. Statistics is one of the tools – yes, of course I kow that.
John, you could start by asking the right questions. You’ve made an assertion that the shooters were rappers, so that means you need three things: A definition of what a rapper is, evidence that these people meet that definition, and an argument as to why that is relevant.
Let me quote Public Enemy: “They say I’m wrong for singing a song without solutions. All the dancers anwers questions.” I’m just asking questions. One of those questions is – rap music seems to contain a lot of glorification of violence – can there really be all this glorification of violence without real-world consequences? That’s my question. I posted a video to raise a question and incite discussion. There -seems- be a lot of association recently between rap and violence, and rap lyrics seem to be getting more violent. These seem like worthy questions to me. Some people seem afraid of those questions.
Now, I’m not a rap fan, I will almost never listen to rap willingly, so I could be off-base, but I don’t think most people who are into it think that “Once made an amateur rap video on YouTube” qualifies a person to be a rapper.
Anyone who claims to be just asking questions is never just asking questions.
Were you one of the people trying to get the Grand Theft Auto games banned, too? I’m just curious.
I never advocated censorship.
“Don’t get me started on Taxi Driver” BWHAHAHAHAAHAHAH!!!
oh please… get started on Taxi Driver
Well, I don’t think Taxi Driver *caused* that event. But I do think in general, Martin Scorcese’s films get by largely on glorifying violence, Taxi Driver included, and I really don’t see the “genius” – just a lot of violence.
I’d also like to know what John’s intention is with quoting public enemy… which you know… is like arguably gangster rap… or is it not… because he likes it?
Public Enemy doesn’t advocate violence and specifically condemns and criticizes the gangsta lifestyle, so it’s anti-gangsta rap. You would know that if you listened to their lyrics.
ok… so Public Enemy good… Marty Scorsese bad… and this is based purely on the definition of “what John likes”
Before we get to the portion of the program where I am 100% making fun of John instead of just 75% making fun of John, I’d like to back up to John’s claims about transmission of misogyny via rap.
“For what it’s worth, Feminists have long maintained that misogyny in rap and other media can affect people’s behaviors and perceptions, and I’m sure you can find some data to that effect. It seems unlikely that misognyist attitudes would carry over from musical lyrics and not other attitudes.”
See, the thing is, I have not seen anyone argue that songs are magically not a vehicle of cultural transmission. The argument is that criticisms of rap *specifically* are unlikely to have a basis in fact, and are much more likely to be racially based “arguments” that are pulled out of butts.
There’s also the issue of context. Are the lyrics operating in an environment where the cultural values they are expressing are normalized? If so, why are those things normalized? To wrap back around to my Rolling Stones example, “Brown Sugar” romanticizes slavery and rape; it specifically and explicitly romanticizes the sexual exploitation of Black women. But since sexual exploitation of Black women is highly normalized, a lot of people are perfectly capable of glossing over that while allowing it to reforce their internalized racist and sexist attitudes.
One of the reasons that violent rap gets such a big rise out of (mostly white) people is that it’s very threatening to the status quo, which is that violent Black men don’t get to have a voice and ZOMG KIDS ARE LISTENING TO STUFF ABOUT KILLING COPS AND THAT’S NOT EVEN MUSIC.
Scorcese’s all right. Just a lot of violence, that’s all. I personally like Public Enemy – if you have different taste in music, that’s fine. It’s personal. I do think their message is more positive than Pro Era.
“Got a woman C-O to call me a copter
She tried to get away, and I popped her
Twice, right, now who wanna get nice?
I had 6 C-Os, now it’s 5 to go”
At first, I was gonna go for something obscure, but then I realized that Black Steel in the Hour of Chaos was a better point since it’s both obviously violent and one of their best known songs. Heck, it’s in the African American Norton Anthology.
You’re harping on 1 Rolling Stones song. Do you really want me to look at the Pro Era catalog?
No, I mostly just wish you’d stop being a racist, John. But I don’t think that’s likely to happen.
How can I be racist if I only dislike you?
Experience indicates that you find ways.
You do realize that these rappers rap about killing other blacks, not just white cops? If violent rap music DOES cause violence, it’s mostly directed at, and costing the lives of black youth. It’s not white people they’re killing.
“Burn Hollywood burn I smell a riot
Goin’ on first they’re guilty now they’re gone
Yeah I’ll check out a movie
But it’ll take a Black one to move me”
-Burn Hollywood Burn
“I pump, you jump up
Hear my words my verbs
And get juiced up
I been around a while
You can describe my sound
Clear the way
For the Prophets of Rage”
-Prophets of Rage
Source of both “Lyrics of a Rap Revolutionary: Volume One” by Chuck D of Public Enemy. Which I helpfully happened to have sitting next to me because I use it to teach poetry in the class that I start teaching on Monday.
And the funny thing is, I had the same thought as Keith. But decided to go the more obscure route. That said, Black Steel in the Hour of Chaos in in fact the very first poem I read out loud on the first day of class in my lit class.
“Michael Brown acted out his lyrics. He rapped about bullying people and stealing Swisher sweets – and lo and behold, he’s on video knocking over a store clerk and taking Swisher sweets. The Tsarnev kid posted rap lyrics to his Facebook account before the bombing and during the manhunt that “justified” (in his mind) his actions. These Bebdo terrorists are rap fans. I’m sure if I cared to chronicle connections between violence and rap it wouldn’t be hard.”
“You do realize that these rappers rap about killing other blacks, not just white cops? If violent rap music DOES cause violence, it’s mostly directed at, and costing the lives of black youth.”
I’m just admiring the beauty of these two John quotes next to each other.
Also, also… looking back (missed a bunch because I had to go to the store)… I kinda love that John thinks Keith is backing him up.
Burn Hollywood Burn is good but I have to admit I liked Driving Miss Daisy. Both leads are great, it’s a movie that’s about older people, and it isn’t all violence.
so I return to my earlier statement. Basically your definition of what counts as “gangsta” or not is “does John like it?”
What is “gangsta” to you Mav? Apparently it has nothing to do with Gangs or Gangsters, but instead talking ducks selling insurance. Is an professor in textual analysis really going to tell me that the defining themes of gangsta rap are product placement?
“Police supposed to keep the peace
But I don’t truss em so I keep my piece” –Public Enemy, “Hazy Shade of Criminal
See? Never “just asking questions.”
why, I’m glad you asked! Much like all literary genres, “gangsta rap” is kind of nebulous. Genres are defined after the fact by examining similar stylistic and context based conventions. I would argue that the gangsta rap subgenre of hip hop is defined by allusion to and stylistic adoption of the urban street gang culture of the late 1980s and early 90s. These stylistic conventions included thematic references and fashion choices. Early innovators of the form would be Ice T/Body Count and NWA.
Thematic references …such as what themes? Let me guess – thematic themes. Are you playing “hide the ball”?
AND…. drum roll please… Public Enemy!
So rap is a music genre with sylistic conventions, thematic references, and fashion choices. Is today the day for absolute vagary? All music genres could be described the same way, and I would still know nothing about them. What are you hiding?
off the top of my head: Black nationalism, racial profiling, gang warfare, poverty, drug culture.
You should read the Wikipedia entry on Gangsta Rap and learn something about it.
I would not put PE in the category of gangster rap. I would characterize gangster rap as being hip-hop primarily themed around tales of being in a gang or committing violent crime or drug selling. My early list would obviously also include Ice-T and NWA, but would have to have Schooly D on it and would not include PE at all.
no, rap music is a specific technical form. Spoken word to music. Hip hop is a genre with certain subgenres, one of which is called gangsta rap. There is some rap that is not hip hop. There is some hip hop that is not rap.
This isn’t at all vague. Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense.
Wait, “appeal to authority” is a logical fallacy, but “appeal to Wikipedia” isn’t?
you know how awesome I am… I actually predicted that no matter what I said, you would try to point to the absolute “authority” of wikipedia. So I was already opening the page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangsta_rap Let’s see what it says:
“Gangsta rap is a subgenre of hip hop music that evolved from hardcore hip hop. The genre was pioneered in the mid-1980s by rappers such as Schoolly D and Ice-T, and was popularized in the later part of the 1980s by groups like N.W.A.[1] After the national attention that Ice-T and N.W.A attracted in the late 1980s and early 1990s, gangsta rap became the most commercially lucrative subgenre of hip hop. Some gangsta rappers have been associated, or allegedly have ties with the Bloods or Crips gangs.[2]”
And then moving down a little:
“Early Gangster Themes
The 1973 album Hustler’s Convention by Lightnin’ Rod and Jaren Clark featured lyrics that deal with street life, including pimping and the hustling of drugs. The Last Poets member Jalal Mansur Nuriddin delivers rhyming vocals in the urban slang of his time, and together with the other Last Poets members, was quite influential on later hip hop groups, such as Public Enemy. Many rappers, such as Ice-T and Mac Dre, have credited pimp and writer Iceberg Slim with influencing their rhymes.”
You were saying?
Well, gee Jessi you got me. I guess all reading and research is a logical fallacy. Let’s throw all the books away! Wikipedia – what a den of lies!
PE is much more in the “positive rap” or “political rap” category where any tales of violence are specifically part of a resistance narrative of some sort. They’re much more like X-Clan, Poor Righteous Teachers, Kool Moe Dee, or Brand Nubian than they are like Ice-T, NWA, Ice Cube, Schooly D, or MC Eiht.
Keith is correct. Mav is incorrect. For shame – learn your rap!
The wikipedia article looks more like it’s saying that Gangster Rap and PE share common influences. Am I missing something?
They do share some common influences, IMO. I would say PE had some of its roots in the gangsta rap of its time, but quickly became something else. Music branches out.
John edits his comments more often than Playboy airbrushes boobies
dude… you’re the one who brought up wikipedia!!!!
I like Wikipedia.
I shouldn’t really have used Ice Cube in my example, there, though. Cube definitely belongs to the intersection of the gangster and political categories, much like his fellows Da Lynch Mob and WC and the MAAD Circle which all had an overt political edge to their gangster rap.
So do you guys and gals not believe in hate speech or inciteful speech? Surely we agree that if someone yelled at a crowd at a protest “kill that cop”, that speech could incite violence, right?
That would have been my point. Genres are very loosely defined. Pretty much always. Can you definitely say which of Picasso’s paintings are cubist and which ones are futurist?
Instead what you do is look for similarities and state your definition before you make your argument. I could easily see putting PE in the category of gangsta rap or not, depending on what I happened to be talking about at the time. Normally, I actually wouldn’t because the things that interest me about PE are generally not the more gangsta aspects.
Similarly, I’d argue that “Party for Your Right to Fight” is both a hip hop song and a rock song.
All periods of Picasso contain some thematic and stylistic elements. It is through his use of theme and style that you can differentiate him from other artists.
I am, though starting to suspect that I’m the only one hoping that this discussion will somehow wind its way around to being a discussion of the role of the 5 Percent Nation in adding politics into more street-oriented hip-hop.
John is also an expert at moving goal posts.
What was the original goal post?
the awesome thing is that he often inadvertently moves the posts CLOSER to his opponent
I tried to help John meet his goals but he moved the posts and declared that it was my fault.
Keith: I actually think that would be a hugely interesting discussion to have.
At the end of the day, the Tea Party is perfectly reasonable to be shocked at a rap lyric that endorses killing “pigs”. That was the original goal post, and you guys were wrong.
Laura: I’ve been avoiding telling you this for years… I guess its time you knew. You’re a girl. So you can’t do math.
and here I thought it was just because I have 11 fingers
If only the rap song endorsed killing feds instead, then they’d be fans.
LOL @ Keith.
John: Lets say you’re right… I’ll grant you that just for a moment… Let’s say that “Come Come” is a song about nothing other than “kill all the police”
Now, keeping in mind that 1) Malia Obama did not write that song. 2) She did not sing that song. 3) She is not Barack Obama.
Where is the relevance in what they’re saying?
Wait, don’t put words in my mouth Mav. I didn’t say it was about NOTHING other than killing police.
” At the end of the day, the Tea Party is perfectly reasonable to be shocked at a rap lyric that endorses killing “pigs”. ”
… while completely ignoring the context of the harassment-laden “stop-and-frisk” type procedures that the lyric is _actually_ addressing. That doesn’t strike me as reasonable at all.
Are t-shirts transitive?
Wow….. I actually helped you and you got offended
If it’s about other things then your argument becomes way more stupid
No it doesn’t. I don’t see why hate speech would become less offensive because it was surrounded by other themes. Aguably it’s more offensive – because it’s casual.
Ok. then… go back to what I said. Lets say the song is about HATE against the police.
Now, keeping in mind that 1) Malia Obama did not write that song. 2) She did not sing that song. 3) She is not Barack Obama.
Where is the relevance in what they’re saying?
I think I agree with you in so far as all that. Obama is their political enemy – so they’re stirring up anger against him. I wasn’t speaking to that aspect of it. That’s all political nonsense, and I agree.
Ok, best John edit ever! you actually changed your last comment from: “No it doesn’t. I don’t see why hate speech would become less offensive because it was surrounded by other themes.”
to
” No it doesn’t. I don’t see why hate speech would become less offensive because it was surrounded by other themes. Aguably it’s more offensive – because it’s casual.”
Ladies and gentlemen, John literally just defined institutionalized racism and sexism.
How is that?
Sorry, I just don’t see a lyric which seems to boil down to “When people are harassed and oppressed, there’s a high risk they’ll retaliate” as “hate speech”.
Well you’re paraphrasing the lyric to make it sound better. They lyric says – kill cops who stop and frisk you. Whether you disapprove of stop & frisk or not – killing people – is murder. It advocates murder.
John: because that’s what it means.
Always wait for the edit…
Whatever Mav thinks he sees in my edit – I don’t see. I guess, having lost on many substantive points, you’re now reading what you want into anything.
And to be frank – the first I time I read the lyrics to this song, I thought it was advocating BOTH the murder of cops and the murder of rival rappers.
Is “Kill cops who stop and frisk you” hate speech?
No…. your edit changed your definition of racism into a definition of institutionalized racism by addressing the casualness. I wasn’t at all implying that you did it on purpose. I think we all assume you didn’t.
That’s above my head Mav.
I know
A song that’s entirely about killing cops is at least fully cognizant of what its saying. A song that has one line about killing cops – kind of makes you feel like that is just a common sentiment that doesn’t even need developing. i.e. “Of course we should be killing cops”.
yes!!!!
keep going!
(I’m not being sarcastic…)
Yes, but you and I see that fact from two different perspectives. One line about killing cops is much more shocking to me than a whole song about it.
yep…. keep going….
Well, that’s all I have on that.
(I know you think I’m making fun of you here… I’m not… this is actually pretty innovative)
I can’t keep going unless you give me more to work with. That was my thought.
Don’t worry, Mav. He was offended when I tried to help him, too.
Laura: yeah, but you’re a girl!
Yeah, but you’re black!
I don’t really dislike you Laura. I just don’t like all the character attack.
John: Ok…. here’s the thing. You’re saying that the song is more damaging because it casually accepts that an atrocity as a given. That killing cops is ok. Therefore saying it off the cuff while really talking about something else is worse than coming right out and saying “kill the police” like Ice T did.
now… replace the word COP with “NIGGER” or “BITCH”
You mean the part where at least half of my “argument” is straight-up making fun of you?
I can certainly understand that.
Yeah that doesn’t endear you to me.
You might endeavor to be less mockable, but I don’t see that happening, either.
That would be casual acceptance of racism and sexism… which, by the way, Laura and I just nicely illustrated with our comments back and forth at each other. And we weren’t even planning it!
I mean, either you like to play a racist idiot on the internet, OR you’re actually a racist idiot, John, and neither of those reflects well on you.
Making people listen to shiney, happy songs isn’t proven to make them be nice and happy people.
I’m not quite sure what you’re saying. Are you saying that “kill the blacks” is more or less offensive or “inciteful” than “kill the cops”?
Yeah, that song make me wanna slap someone. So maybe violent songs will make me be nice to people?
I actually don’t want to answer that right away, John. Just for the sake of the experiment…. take what you said, then what I said… and extrapolate it out. I want to see where you go with it. Please, by all means… show your work.
(Seriously, I’m not making fun of you this time. I’m willing to bet that Laura, Jameel, Jessi and Keith at the very least are all finding everything you’re saying here ridiculously fascinating)
And (I don’t want to edit my post again), but I’d like to add – my problem is a lot of these rap songs DO say “kill the blacks’. That is the message over and over again. “Talk shit get shot”. Who do you think is getting shot? That songs not about police. It’s about killing blacks. In 100 different synomyns. Kill blacks. Kill blacks. Kill blacks. That’s the lyrics in these rap songs. And once in awhile, there’s a “kill cops” too.
Um. Hi john. Hi chris. Hi laura. John? * pointed look*
Hi MaryEllen!
Laura says I’m an idiot – which is certainly possible. But I’d like to think not.
No really. Don’t get sidetracked. Please. Humor me here. Make your exact cop argument about black people.
I’m not sure what you’re asking.
Go back to what you said about the casual reference being worse. And try to apply it to black people instead of cops.
I see a 300 thread post. I understand you mean well (theoretically… I dont have an interest in reading it….) I don’t understand the point of arguing ANY point to this extent.
Since we’ve been quoting rappers, I’m gonna quote Homeboy Sandman.
“I am not antisocial
Music about killing black people makes me emotional
Everybody act like the shit is unnoticeable”
You do understand that that song “Come Come” is all a gangster metaphor? They are running a drug ring and keeping out competitors with bullets – that’s the major metaphor. Presumably those metaphorical bullets are for blacks. It’s NOT the cops that they’re protecting their territory from with a .44. “Blind bitch baby” (the woman who they are denigrating) is probably not a cop. It’s some woman, black or white, that they’re denigrating.
I’d indulge you Mav, but I don’t really have a clue what you want me to do.
no no… seriously… don’t think too hard. Say the same thing: “No it doesn’t. I don’t see why hate speech would become less offensive because it was surrounded by other themes. Aguably it’s more offensive – because it’s casual.”
But put it in terms of black people other than police officers.
Especially when you are almost certainly appearing in an unfavourable light despite the fact that you are a bigger feminist and liberal than I am. 🙁
Keith – do you understand what he wants me to write?
You do understand that if you shoot bullets at people honing in on your drug ring, you’re probably shooting other members of the inner city, right? This song is MOSTLY about killing blacks. But it also happens to advocate killing cops.
I’m not even talking about the song specifically. You have an argument, in the abstract about why it is bad to casually advocate killing police officers, right?
in fact, please… restate that argument.
(don’t worry about the substitution)
I think he’s looking for you to talk about how the same principle of casual hate speech being more offensive than explicit hate speech applies to people’s casual use of misogyny and terms which are negative against black people and perhaps how that’s much more widespread in our popular media.
Yes I think it is bad to casually advocate killing police officers. I also think it is bad to casually advocate killing anyone – including blacks. But I must be alone on that – because that’s what most Gangsta rap is – casual advocacy of killing people. And I’m not for censorship. It’s not the existence or expression of these sentiments that bothers me. It’s the volume – how much of it there is and how often the people who listen to this music must hear these sentiments.
He probably wants you to write that you are done with this thread. Or is that me?
no no… I don’t at all want him to stop… he’s seriously like a centimeter away from an important breakthrough here.
Well, I’m waiting for a break through from you Mav : ) I’m not saying anything here I didn’t think from post #1. I need to hear Mav say that maybe constant glorification of murder could be problemmatic.
like I’m pretty astounded. Normally I argue with people because I like that it promotes the discourse. I never actually expect anyone who disagrees with me to learn anything… but if learning is a flame, John is standing so close to it right now that it is burning his ass!
Do I have to start singing hippie peace song here?
I’m not sure what I supposedly “learned”. This has been my position from the beginning. But if pretending that I learned helps Mav save face, fine. It still doesn’t change the argument any. The song glorifies murder. Many rap songs do. Should we concern ourselves with the messaging in rap songs? Perhaps we should.
Having listened to Come Come again, I feel the need to note that it is not, as a whole, using drug dealing as a metaphor. Most of the lyrics are literally about making music. There is only one place in the whole song where someone makes a drug metaphor which is the same number of places where Optimus Prime is referenced or where firing cannonballs are used as a metaphor.
MaryEllen: I get how uncomfortable this is for you. You’re married to someone who has spent the last couple hours saying things that are so blatantly racist that most people would assume that he is a character on a sketch comedy show. And I know he doesn’t see it.
But, I also know he’s not “joking” he seriously believes these things.
But against all odds, he has sort of aimlessly wandered into a base understanding of why what he is saying is offensive. He’s so close to it. But won’t grab the carrot.
I firmly believe that he is really about to get there and be a better person for it. It would a shame to stop him now.
Keith: yeah, the song is mostly about making music despite adversity. No matter which way you interpret the “problem” lyric, it is clearly taken out of context from the whole.
I don’t think Mav is worried about saving face here.
nope… not at all.
Well verse #2 is a drug dealing metaphor.
It’s racist to say that a lyric advocating the murder of cops is just “ok”.
close… replace the word cops too
But the lyric is “cops” . If I change the lyric, it’s not the actual song.
and add on the casual bit
The song advocates the killing of cops.
I’m not talking about the song. that’s why i said change it…
I’m not changing it. It is what it is. It advocates killing cops.
wow… ok…. I’m actually not sure anymore. So I’m asking everyone else… including MaryEllen. Is he just to thick to see what he’s doing or is he obstinately not doing it just because?
The new Body Count song left an impression on me, and it’s baggage I’m bringing to this discussion, but I am concerned about the volume of exhortations to “kill” in rap music. Maybe I’m getting old and squeamish, but it is troubling to me how angry and inciteful this music is getting, and in ANY OTHER CONTEXT, people would take affront at the suggestion that you KILL people – even people oppressing you. We as a society are quite committed to non-violence. But rap music appears to be (at least) one place – untouched by liberal Gandhism or whatnot, because it’s all KILL KILL KILL. The messages in this music are quite at odds with the messages that you would get, from say, a non-violent protest organizer.
again… you’re trying to hard. Stop worrying about the song… literally…. forget that the Pro Era or Body Count songs exist. Tell me why casual prejudice against cops is worse than direct prejudice…. THEN say the exact same thing bur replace cops with blacks.
My whole point of posting here was to post my opinion on violence in rap lyrics. Whatever you’re driving at, does not seem to be related to that and whatever point you’re trying to make is lost on me and only seems calculated to trying to paint me as racist or something in a discussion that didn’t have to do with race.
we know it’s lost on you… which is why you’re being racist. I’m literally saying, as a thought experiment… state your argument as to why violent references about cops in songs are bad.
Exhortations to kill cops in songs are bad because listeners than think about killing cops, and some might act on that in the wrong circumstances. Exhortations to kill cops simply for doing their job are simply murder – it’s not self-defense to kill someone because they stopped you or frisked you. If I kill a cop who stopped me – I’ve committed murder. Most enlightened people frown upon murder.
Ok…. now… NO THINKING…. replace all cops references to blacks
I’m sure you can manage a find and replace.
Thomas Crapper actually didn’t invent the flush toilet.
like I said… humor me.
“I am concerned about the volume of exhortations to “kill” in rap music.” OK. That’s a reasonable thing to be concerned about.
I think “rap music” is a much too general term, though; there’s a very wide range of music covered under that. I also think that if one is worried about “rap music” and not worried about “pop music” or “metal” or other varieties of music with a lot of violence in them, they need to figure out why it is that they’re so worried about rap.
Exhortations to kill blacks in songs are bad because listeners than think about killing blacks, and some might act on that in the wrong circumstances…
Steve: no he didn’t. I kinda tossed that one in there. Was wondering if anyone would catch it. He was one of many manufacturers of early flushable toilets
Just trying to keep eveyone honest.
It doesn’t matter if its cops or blacks. If rap music is encouraging its listeners to kill people – that’s murder.
John: why’d you cut off the end of the quote
Because I’m lazy and I don’t know what you’re after.
I do not understand how we got from “being a rapper makes you kill satirical French cartoonists” to “zomg black-on-black crime” but OK.
It makes no difference to me whether the sentence reads cops or blacks, or both. It’s the same sentiment. Rap is filled with songs inciting violence. I don’t like it. Do you? I mean – why are you defending a line about killing cops?
I know you don’t know what I’m after. Please, humor me…
Ok… but you acknowledge that doing it CASUALLY is worse. right?
I think doing it casually is often worse, but not always. I mean, Mein Kampf was not a casual takedown of Jews. It was the main theme.
Ok… but you acknowledge that if I go around saying “jew me down on the price” that’s bad. right?
It’s derogatory/disrespectful. It’s not an exhortation to kill Jews though.
ok… fine… but you acknowledge it’s bad?
It’s bad yes. But it’s not comparable to the statement in the rap song, which is much worse.
Ok… how about if I casually say “black people are usually criminals. kill the fuckers”
I really kind of wish you’d just come out with your point Mav, rather than dancing around.
getting there….
Yes, your statement re: “black people” is both derogatory and inciteful.
good!
Please stop saying “good” or “bad”. It’s insulting. I am not a child, and if I humor you to draw out your actual point – it’s not because I’m an idiot.
ok… now… how about if a black man is killed and I say “he was asking for it because he stole some cigars”
yes… it is insulting
Nobody asserts that anyone deserved to die because they stole something.
(and I’m doing it for a reason… will get to it in a second)
Yes!!! Yes they do! Specifically YOU DO!
Nope! Nice try though Mav. What else do you have? I hope this wasn’t all leading up to something so stupid.
you also assert that someone deserves to die because they were selling illegal cigarettes
Nope! But let’s keep the lies going. That’s 2 lies.
you just don’t realize you do because you literally do it casually ALL THE FUCKING TIME!!!!
Nope – I don’t.
Where’s your “data”?
If you attack a police officer, they have a right to defend themselves, and if they feel their life is in danger – use lethal force. No one deserves to die for theft. You don’t even deserve to die for attacking a police officer. A police officer defending themselves is never a question of “desert”. It’s a question of necessity.
that’s why I’ve gone out of my way to be insulting to you by treating you like a child the last several messages… the “goods” and all that… you got irritated by it just with one guy typing it to you for 10 minutes.
You on the other hand, do it constantly. Casually. Without thinking. It doesn’t occur to you. Because you are incapable of stepping outside of the frame of reference for your own idea. That’s why you couldn’t get it. That’s why your wife keeps telling you to stop arguing. That’s why everyone is irritated by you.
My data is literally everything you’ve said over the last couple hundred comments. You are completely unaware of how what you say is construed as casually being racist and therefore even more infuriating than if you’d just come out and say “fuck those ignorant niggers.”
LOL. You’re not an honest person Mav. Your 2 dozen post argument at the end came down to nothing more than to calling me a racist and saying I hold beliefs that I’ve made quite clear I don’t – all in defense of a song that advocates killing cops. So I turn your question back on you – does a cop that STOPS and FRISKS a black man DESERVE to die? Unlike you – I won’t put words in your mouth. But your heated defense of the song seems to suggest that you do.
I’m not saying you HOLD beliefs. I’m saying you CASUALLY express them without thinking about them. That is institutional racism. That is in effect, to quote someone earlier:
“I don’t see why hate speech would become less offensive because it was surrounded by other themes. Aguably it’s more offensive – because it’s casual.”
I say NO NO and again NO. YOU casually express the belief that COPS deserve to die for a history of oppression of minorities. And when I challenge you on that, you have to accuse me of racism.
I’m not talking about me. I’m talking about you.
I humored you, did your cut and pastes so you could (quite literally) try to put words in my mouth. And at the end of the day, it’s still shocking to see people rapping about killing cops, because it’s a shocking sentiment. It’s certainly not a “peaceful protest” sentiment. It’s not the way of MLK. I never heard Martin Luther King, Jr. advocate killing cops., and since we’re honoring him in a few days – maybe you should reflect on SANITY. It’s advocacy of murder and your unwillingness to admit that maybe there’s something not so good there, is telling. Yes, it’s just fantasy for the most part. But fantasies can verge into really unethical places and people get scared of them – and I can’t say we shouldn’t worry when our fantasies get too far from our ethics.
Enough.
I didn’t put words in your mouth. I used your words. I was trying to get you to understand that the idea of hate speech against other races, cultures and genders — of which you do constantly — is just as bad, if not worse, if you do it casually… just like cops. Keith actually gave you the answer ages ago.
I get that you don’t see why what you say about Michael Brown is the same as what you are claiming Pro Era is saying about the cops. That is what makes it casual and what makes you a racist.
Of “which I do constantly”. You have an active imagination Mav.
Yes, I imagined it… as have all the other people here.
Michael Brown probably attacked a cop. Cops don’t normally drive up to random kids and shoot them. We know Michael Brown’s state of mind that day – he was violent, as we saw him push around a clerk in a convenience store. Use common sense. Violent guy who just robbed a convenience store gets stopped by police…what do you think usually happens next? There’s two ways that scenario goes – fight or flight.
“probably” your assumption of guilt based on what?
your assumption if his state of mined based on what?
Your assumption of innocence is based on what?
your assumption that cops don’t normally drive up and shoot unarmed kids based on what
Brown’s blood was on the gun, in the car, he wasn’t shot in the back, etc. etc.
If cops regularly drive up and shoot kids – you’re going to have to give me “data.” And even if they did (which they don’t) – what are the chances the kid they chose to mess with just robbed a convenience store?
I’m not assuming innocence. innocence is irrelevant to my argument… its only relevant to yours
I can do better than give you data… I can post videos… I in fact did, the last time we had this argument
Cops will shoot a black kid, choke a black man out, etc. Don’t get it twisted.
Assuming Michael Brown was shot in cold blood: other police officers should be killed by blacks if they stop them for any reason? That’s the sentiment in that line. You’re advocating a Malcolm X world and I’m living in a MLK world and they’re really not compatible. I thought most people were living in a MLK world, but from the sentiments expressed by you, Laura, and Jameel it doesn’t seem that way.
but your argument is that we assume that those kids were guilty in ALL of those cases… you make this assumption… “casually”
you assume he was in a violent state of mind. you assume he probably attacked.
We know Eric Garner didn’t violently attack. We know Tamir Rice didn’t. We know John Crawford didn’t. We know Levar Jones not only wasn’t attacking but was text book complying with what the officer told him to do…
Police randomly shoot black people all the time.
Well you don’t see me advocating any song inciting the shooting of black people, do you? I would like to see less violence and killing of innocents all around. And rap songs telling kids to kill all cops doesn’t seem to encourage non-violent solutions to these problems.
No… I see you casually saying it doesn’t happen… and invoking a misunderstanding of Martin Luther King… which Jameel just helpfully pointed out.
casual hate speech… in your words. Institutionalized racism, officially
A riot is not murder.
The song advocates murder.
can you put that goal post just a little more to the left… thanks
I’m unapologetically , unequivocally against murder. If that’s racism to you, than I don’t care.
no you aren’t.
you’re against murder of white cops
Hey they kill non-white cops too.
you have no problem with murder of black people who “probably” deserve it.
People want MLK to have been the Civil Rights Teddy Bear, and it’s just not so. The man was an activist.
I have no problem whatsoever with riots. Change doesn’t come easy.
But killing random people for political gain is terrorism, and MLK would never have approved of that.
As I said before “desert” is not a factor in my analysis.
But it appears to be the main factor in YOURS. And you guys are so obsessed with it, you can’t even imagine that it’s not a factor in mine.
I am replying to this and turning off notifications, but 409 comments? Shit Mav, that’s a new hi-score.
It’s essential to your argument. You won’t call it murder because he was “probably” attacking and he was in a “violent frame of mind”
If it WAS self-defense, than it’s not murder. The evidence is inconclusive. People who saw all the evidence and heard all the testimony made a decision. I certainly don’t have access to any new evidence that they didn’t. I have no great reason to disbelieve the verdict based on what I’ve seen and read. And whatever happened, it doesn’t justify exhortations to kill random police officers. Even in an EYE-FOR-AN-EYE, TOOTH-FOR-A-TOOTH world of vengeance & reprisal, the most that could justify would be an exhortation to kill Darren Wilson, if you were really confident that he just stone-cold murdered Brown. But killing police officers that stop & frisk you – that’s killing any police officer that tries to do their job.
Grand juries DO NOT GIVE OUT VERDICTS.
And one of the grand jurors is now suing the prosecutor, claiming in part that the prosecutor knowingly presented false testimonies to the grand jury.
Dale : yep. I posted about the other day. I expected that to be the big comment post. Not this. But John knows that. Or he should. He’s a lawyer. Which sort of makes his comment all the more indicative of “casual hate speech”
John. Time to go.
Yeah, I kept seeing this comment thread pop up and assumed it was for that other post. I was so confused! I am so confused!
Dale: Yeah, that was a big thing with the goal post moving thing… the buik of this thread has NOTHING to do with Malia Obama or her wardrobe choices.
Why would I care about Malia Obama’s warddrobe choices?
because that’s what my article was about.
Only in part. Your post was also about interpretation of the lyrics. Which is the part that interested me. I fully agree with you that picking apart her wardrobe choices is stupid politics.
No… in its entirety. It was about her T-shirt and people’s ridiculous responses to it. I never mentioned Brown or Wilson at all… you made that leap because you saw this as an opportunity to attack a dead black man for being black…. institutional racism!
Well, those things would appear to be relevant to issues relating to “slaughtering pigs, anyone can get it”. Some cops were recently killed in a reprisal attack – but perhaps you don’t see them as worth acknowledging/human. (And I note you didn’t acknowledge them). Forgive me for trying to address those lyrics in the context of ongoing events, it probably disrupts the narrative you’re trying to control.
Truth is that 11 year olds will wear anything they think looks cool. For all we know, she just liked the colors and has never even heard the band.
John: and you making that jump is why everyone says you’re being racist. Full circle.
Joy: Well, she’s the older one. But it still holds. She might be a fan. She might not. She might know that song. She might not. But as I said earlier, I wore a Darth Vader shirt yesterday. I’m wearing another one today. That doesn’t mean I endorse his actions. And it certainly doesn’t mean my mother does.
Look at this from my perspective. Some completely random cops were just killed in a reprisal attack for the Michael Brown decision. You are saying that lines about “slaughtering pigs, anybody can get it” are just “metaphors” for busting good rhymes. You don’t see a problem? Would you dare say that to the families of those dead cops? The Obamas are not part of this as far as I’m concerned. I don’t care whether they listen to rap or Journey or oldies. I personally kind of like Obama. I have a few criticisms, but he’s been better than most. I voted for him twice. My problem is with your dismissive attitude toward hate speech. Cops ARE killed – at random. Anybody CAN get it. It’s not really “funny”.
John: yep. I think that’s bad. Now, look at it this way. I, and everyone of my skin color live in constant fear of being shot dead while talking on our cellphone in a Walmart or filling up our car at a gas station. So much so that the SMART thing to do is not stand up for our own civil rights because constitutionally mandated freedoms are not as important as not being shot. And then even with all that, I’m not guaranteed that it won’t just happen anyway… We’ve personally seen it happen throughout our entire lives and the one thing we’ve had to look forward to is that out father and grandfathers say “as shitty as it is, thank god, its gotten better than it was in our day…” Except, in the last year, instead of getting better it’s getting worse and worse.
And then on top of that we have to defend ourselves agains ignorant bigots who don’t recognize the joy of the privileges they’ve been given in life and instead are constantly trying to tell us “the right way” to behave by disparaging out culture and telling assuming that because they’ve read a couple random blog posts and a wikipedia page they have more understanding than we can gain through not only forty years of life experience, but specifically doing post graduate study in the area…
do you see a problem?
I’m no genius – but “slaughtering pigs” is not rhetoric I’m on board with, and any phrase that ends with “anyone can get it” sounds like terrorism. I’m not unsympathetic to problems with racial relations – but having black kids walking around listening to rap music exhorting them to kill “pigs” doesn’t seem like a good recipe for anything – and I think my views on this are simple, sane, common sense. Why I should have to go to such great lengths and be accused of such vile things to get a relatively simple and straightforward viewpoint out is beyond me. I really hope your students don’t get this kind of abuse when they disagree with you.
John: nope… it works almost as well as holding onto the belief that no matter what you can’t possibly be part of the problem and dismissing any evidence to the contrary because you’re perfect.
You once told me that you didn’t want to get into one of these conversations because you didn’t like that everyone construed everything you said as racist when you were just trying to offer your honest opinion.
Don’t just jump to an answer. Think about this. Give it at least a good five minutes worth of thought. Compare it to your earlier comment that “casual hatred is worse.”
If this keeps happening to you… and I know it does, because you’ve done it on my pages multiple times and you and MaryEllen have both commented that it happened elsewhere….
So if this keeps happening to you… in multiple locations… wouldn’t Ockham’s Razor tell you there’s at least some chance that maybe you’ve got some racial issues that you need to resolve?
One of the people in this thread is waiting in the car for you.
Gotta run. Later!
It’s funny because John got in trouble.
Only if he doesn’t enjoy the beatings to come.
Here’s hoping!
Hey, give them some credit. They got the band part right. I’m more surprised they didn’t think she was Pro ERA, as in Equal Rights Amendment. Then they could have gone off on how silly it is that a girl might think that women deserve rights.
Jim: I actually did think about making that joke!
Sorry guys but I’m not reading the comments until you hit 500.
Wow… lame… My Facebook to blog translator crapped out after 250 comments… how am I going to enjoy the 200 that followed now?
♫Take on me (take on me)
Take me on (take on me)♪
Sorry, I was having my own A-Ha moment there. 🙂
Personally I can’t believe I read that entire thread. That may well speak negatively to my sanity.
Also, I was highly amused that he thinks people should make use of literary sources for knowledge (the whole Wikipedia deal), but that he doesn’t seem to acknowledge that those sources are written by the same authorities he was denouncing earlier.
But I do have to agree that I personally see Public Enemy in a more political rap than gangsta rap light.
In fairness, I think Mav’s short “C’mon! You can do it!” “You’re almost there!” posts inflated the numbers a little.
So, is this lull the part where we all fill out our Bingo cards and share our score?
(I don’t really know how Bingo works)
Those were after my daemon cut off at 250.
What are the chances that John has had his moment of realization?
Zero. He really was close. But instead he got offended. Then started writing me and insulting me in private and telling me that we couldn’t understand the struggles of being a white man and that we were the real racists. Then after 2 hours or so of me telling him I would not have the arguments in private. He blocked me.
Oh, well. You tried.
I really did….
Oh yeah, we white men have it SO much tougher than everyone else. All this pressure…to show what white privilege can do for us…you know, it’s a tough life and screw anyone who doesn’t get it.
I think I may vomit now.
Oh and forgive me but I only read the last few dozen comments…I’m sure this was totally redundant, but still.
Oh my god. I just read over 500 comments. And, the A-ha moment was the best.
Brenadine: it totally was…a nd it got even crazier when he started writing me personally and explaining to me that the problem was that black people wouldn’t listen when white people try to explain common sense to them and that the world is unfair because black people have the upper hand since white people can’t say anything about race without the threat of ruining their career by being called racist. And that is why “not a single white man on this thread told him he was wrong.”
I told him he had my sympathies for the struggles he has endured because of his whiteness. I also pointed out that Laura was white, but he said she didn’t count because she was a feminist and feminists hate white men.
So yeah… that happened.
I’m the poster boy for Black Power!
Wait, we all know feminists hate all men. See, he’s already wrong.
I don’t think you really want to look for logical consistency in his argument. Hence the lack of a real ah-ha moment.
I really want to say something useful here but all I got is sarcas
Oh. He’s since blocked me. Because black people don’t listen to reason from white people. So sarcasm away.
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/353/279/e31.jpg
Nah. That took hours to escalate. And he even tried to invoke Hitler like 3 or 4 times.
From my perspective, I glanced at your headliner yesterday, and then saw 500+ comments today.
Ah. Are we over 500? I thought we were just under.
My counter says 459.
What’s 40 comments or so between friends? 😉
Oh sweet. I made a change to the daemon code so now it goes to 2500 comments instead of 250. So it’s syncing again. But it looks like the comments between when it cut out and now won’t be archived on my website. Ah well.
But onto the topic of rap, anytime that someone starts argueing about music or video games making people do stuff, I just think back to people protesting about D&D. How it was going to lead people to Satanism and make them kill people. I still have a copy of Mazes and Monster on DVD.
And I know we have gamers old enough to remember those times on this thread.
Joy: I agree. But now that he’s gone, Stephanie does have a counter argument to mine. Hopefully she’ll share.
Wow. Followed this, couldn’t comment at work, was enjoying watching Chris and Laura tear someone to shreds, rhetorically speaking. Came back to see where it went, and… wow. The lack of self awareness was awe inspiring. Great read though, with lots to think about.
Yeah, comments at 466 now, but I swear earlier it said 504?
The “Do depictions of X in media perpetuate X in real life?” issue can be a sticky one for me, but that’s because it’s way more complicated than simple cause and effect. It plays a part in normalizing unpleasant or awful things, but ultimately it’s more of a cultural symptom than a cause. Convincing oneself that violent music contributes significantly to real-life violence compared to things like poverty, systemic inequality, and other complex social issues is just people looking for something simple and visible to blame so they don’t have to think about the complicated, inconvenient stuff.
As to rap music: It’s not my thing, but… I don’t think it’s any more or less violent than punk, or metal. But then, I’m an old fogey. Old enough for the misfits to have somehow come around twice.
Right. An argument can be made that violent media encourages violence. I disagree but I’ll get back to that.
If it’s true though, the idea that somehow violent rap is more dangerous than violent death metal or violent jazz kinda relies on magical thinking to a ridiculous amount.
As to the first point, I tend to think it’s more that people who are inherently violent are attracted to violent media. So, if John had been competent enough to make a cohesive argument about Michael Brown or the Charlie killers instead of just being all over the place and hitting random racist sound byte talking points my response would have been: ok, yes. Let’s assume that Brown was a violent individual. And let’s assume he was into violent rap music. Isn’t it more logical that he got into violent rap music BECAUSE it represented his frame of mind than the other way around. It is the same reason the gateway drug argument doesn’t hold for marijuana. It’s not that pot makes you want heroin and crack. It’s that crackheads like getting high so they’re more likely to try ANYTHING that might get you there.
Humans have a long and storied tradition of scapegoating to avoid doing anything about systemic problems within society. I mean, what’ easier? Blaming everything on Elvis shaking his ass, or admitting that, as a society, we’ve seriously fucked up? I had tiny taste of what it was like to lose privileges I didn’t know I had a long time ago, when some other students in my cohort found out I wasn’t technically white. Being talked down to like you’re not entirely human.. well… sucks.
Aww, did I miss the table-turning chance to be a token “white guy friend”? This is what I get for only skimming the 400+ comment thread.
Oh wait, I’m also a feminist, n/m.
Well. Also I have corrupted you. See after seeing a black man call a white man a racist you are now preconditioned to believe it because you’re in my “echo chamber”.
Such is the awe-inspiring power of blacks and why white men are so put upon.
Yes. He really said these things. As I told Jameel earlier: if this had been an SNL skit I would have said it was lame and unbelievable.
Jesus, Mav, stop oppressing me.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_maqiokpnAX1rani6to1_1280.jpg
Also. Jameel clearly hates all white men.
Dale: no. Now get back out there and finish picking the cotton.
So… let me try that logic: If a white guy, like myself, agrees with you, it’s because I’m in your echo chamber (That’s some super power)… but if a black man somewhere agrees with him, it magically makes it not racist?
Oh, totally. Jameel also oppressed me, when we were roommates and I was broke and unemployed and he helped me out with rent all those times.
Joe: well it floated. There’s the fact that no white men would ever disagree with him. There’s the fact that I brainwashed you all with my mighty blackness. And there’s the fact that you’re afraid to speak up because countering claims of racism with common sense would ruin your career in the PC liberal pro black world we live in.
I think I got that all right. I really wish he hadn’t blocked me. Honestly. Seeing the inner workings of the mind of someone that far off the grid is fascinating.
I mean come on. Blacks controlling the world?!?! Ridiculous. Everyone knows that’s the Jews. Right Meron and Moshe?
Out of curiosity from this discussion, I did a google scholar search yesterday to see what studies find on this issue. I ran across a meta-analysis of studies on the effects of violent and prosocial content in video games on behavior:
Greitemeyer, T., & Mügge, D. O. (2014). Video Games Do Affect Social Outcomes A Meta-Analytic Review of the Effects of Violent and Prosocial Video Game Play. Personality and social psychology bulletin, 0146167213520459.
And a paper on the effects of violent lyrics in music:
Anderson, C. A., Carnagey, N. L., & Eubanks, J. (2003). Exposure to violent media: the effects of songs with violent lyrics on aggressive thoughts and feelings. Journal of personality and social psychology, 84(5), 960
basically finding an increase in aggressive thoughts from violent lyrics. (Unfortunately, I couldn’t find anything on the effects of violent lyrics on *behaviors*.)
Of course, this doesn’t show that video games or violent music cause any of the real-world violence it’s been blamed for, but it’s not totally unreasonable to think that there’s some (non-zero) influence, which probably depends on dosage. That is, listening to violent music strengthens particular non-social beliefs, which could result in anti-social behaviors.
You know, I remember being a dumb highschool student who thought things like “I don’t think it’s race; race doesn’t matter; I’m not racist; it’s just socio-economic class.” ’cause I was poor (to be clear on what I mean by poor: free school lunch poor, but not quite welfare poor) and I saw all these scholarships that I couldn’t apply for but, dammit, I wanted to go to college too!
One of the things that stopped me from being so stupid about this stuff was reading about the resume studies; identical resumes, one with an applicant named “Todd” and one named “Tyrone”; same last names even. And Tyrone got HALF AS MANY call backs. Just for having a black-sounding name. Despite being identically-qualified.
Suddenly I realized that socio-economic class had very little to do with it. That if my family was exactly as poor as it was, but we were black, that those scholarships I couldn’t apply for would hardly even be a start at making life fair.
http://www.chicagobooth.edu/capideas/spring03/racialbias.html
…or maybe listening to violent lyrics and finding that someone out there empathizes with the difficulties you feel in your life, and thinking through it as you grapple with the meaning of what you hear, even though it makes you THINK more violently actually makes you ACT less violently. The “blowing off steam” theory.
And also, one study saw that it’s not violence in video games that leads to aggressive thoughts and behaviors, but frustration; frustration at an inability to control ones environment, at the feeling of powerlessness. Not a huge leap from there to the feeling of powerlessness as a minority in a prejudicial society. In which case, lessening the frustration–perhaps by listening to music that empathizes–might help.
But yeah, I’m just guessing too.
http://www.rochester.edu/newscenter/frustration-in-mastering-video-games-linked-to-aggression/
Stephanie: I don’t even disagree with that (actually Steph knows this. We’ve discussed it offline… I’m restating my feelings for the benefit of the group discourse). But I think it actually IS a huge jump to move from influences violent thoughts to influence violent behavior. There are many factors that influence both thought and behavior. Media (music, video games, TV, whatever…) is one of them sure… But growing up being a poor black kid from “da’hood” who enjoyed listening to rap music, i can say unequivocally, I spent way more time being poor and black than I spent listening to music. So those are bound to be much greater influences on my behavior and mindset.
I think we like to pick on media, because it seems like an easy thing to fix. Forgetting all the police slayings in the last year and just looking at gang violence over the last 30 years. It’s really easy to say something like “and 99% of those kids listened to rap music.” And if we can find that rap music raises your violent tendencies by 5% then it feels like that might be a bad thing. Especially if you’re the kid who was already 46% likely to kill someone… But I bet we can also find that growing up way below the poverty line raises your violent tendency by 25% (all these numbers are made up, btw). It just seems like a way easier solution to say “lets take away rap” than “lets get everyone out of poverty.”
Seduction of the Innocent was Frederic Wertham’s book that blamed all of the worlds ills on comics, because rap and video games hadn’t been invented yet. Most refutations of his work point out that the problems are that people don’t live in a vaccuum and that he couldn’t separate out the individuals who were just going to be violent anyway. (also, he just made up data…. but that’s another issue)
Dale also makes an interesting point. Video games present a very odd problem with Lacanian mirror theory. Generally we expect media to present an idealized version of the self. This is why beautiful movie stars are more common than ugly or even “normal looking” ones. But Lacan states that a baby passes the mirror stage when he realizes that he can never make his real self behave as well as the idealized reflection.
So do video games become MORE frustrating because their interactivity causes our lack of perfection to corrupt the reflection as well.
Don’t get me wrong: I definitely think poverty is a much larger factor than media. (In fact, I fantasize about the government distributing incomes equally across the U.S. population, to make up for the economic inequality caused by slavery and continued institutionalized racist policies). And that music lyrics reflect the pain and feelings of the lyricist. I’m just saying that it’s possible that listening to violent lyrics may have an effect on actions. via thoughts. (And by “dosage”, I meant that the more you listen to violent lyrics versus doing other things like being poor, the larger the effect would be.) and btw, I don’t think it’s a big leap to think that thoughts influence actions (e.g., cognitive therapy).
(Your beliefs influence how you interpret given situations and your resulting behaviors.)
Mav asked me to post the link for the meta-analysis of video games:
http://psp.sagepub.com/content/early/2014/01/22/0146167213520459.abstract
And the study on lyrics:
https://www.apahelpcenter.org/pubs/journals/releases/psp-845960.pdf
I found this gif this morning and I wish I’d had it yesterday.
I found this gif this morning and I wish I’d had it yesterday.
http://media.tumblr.com/f5445985662a8aa605a4a6abad6d7207/tumblr_inline_nhu37xrWeb1rqf7b3.gif
Oh sweet!!! it took a while, but after my fix, the daemon went through and retroactively synced all the comments that were missing since #250… I think people talking again got it jumpstarted.
For the purpose of bug testing, we need 10 (now, 9) more comments, in order to see if it stops at 2×250.
in theory, it should stop at 2500.
…I am not that-committed to this project.
For media impacting people, you can also look at studies by all the people saying how models in magazines are influencing young girl and women to be unhappy with their body shapes and to become anorexic.
I oppose the things you find reassuring and good. My own views are contrary to yours and I am unwilling to be persuaded yet I will prattle on continually restating my beliefs while refusing to grant credence to any point you make. Seriously though, I’ve not seen a 500-response thread.
Joy: Yeah, there’s a lot of studies on that. And studies that say Barbie causes anorexia… but a lot of other ones say that the effect is nowhere near as great as people think it is… some say it’s nonexistent. I actually read a lot of these (in both directions) because it’s directly relevant to my research interests.